A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Earliest Evidence
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/9/2009 8:47:59 PM
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walterquez
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Where is the text?
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/9/2009 10:18:57 PM
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Marcus.
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Pardon? Is the link not working?
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'Woe unto those who call evil good and good evil." (Isaiah 5:20)
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/9/2009 11:26:44 PM
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walterquez
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No, the link works, but is there suppose to be a full text somewhere? All I saw was an outline and an offer to purchase the book.
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St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/9/2009 11:31:00 PM
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SoulCrushed
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spam-a-lama-ding-dong?
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/9/2009 11:32:21 PM
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Marcus.
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hehe I found it when I was reading the news off the net. I covered quite a few articles too. I'll go back and see what I can find. I don't remember exactly where I ran across it.
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'Woe unto those who call evil good and good evil." (Isaiah 5:20)
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/9/2009 11:37:46 PM
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Marcus.
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Looks like that was all there was. It was off the Christian newswire link.
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'Woe unto those who call evil good and good evil." (Isaiah 5:20)
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/10/2009 12:29:31 AM
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navyblueret
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""To pay for the expenses of the Rapture, Jesus will offer a special pre-flight rate, if ordered fifty years ago, but all others must pay full fare, to be gone from Tribulation before all Hell Breaks loose. Sorry for the inconvenience, but due to the problems with fiscal expenses, there will no longer be free Salvation, but the price will be kept nominal, so most people can still afford Salvation. Jesus will receive a bonus, to compensate Him for that problem on the Cross, when it was believed that all He would have to do to win Salvation for all, at a price of asking only, so no one need be concerned with the amount of suffering and pain Jesus went through, so that will not be acceptable argument about having to pay the new Salvation, value added tax as well as the new Salvation, one time, fee. Please register yourself, to assure a boarding pass, as space is not limited, but we wish you to think it is limited.
Special note: This offer is made to one and all, folks, Acceptability, or Rejection will be found out at the Judgement Alter, but however your eternity turns out, there are no refunds for any reason. Your Salvation Rapture fee is non-refundable, even if we determining not to have a Rapture.""
Doesn't this above sound wonderful??? If our politicians made it to Heaven, before us, that is about what we could expect to find, being already taxed out of eternity. Boy, now, that is a dark thought. I think I will go back to singing my praises, and quit typing. This subject Thread, has made me blue. so I am out of here.
In Messiah. His Blessing and Soon Coming, for a free flight home. Arley (Ready, Willing, Praying) to Graduate to my God, Soon.
< Message edited by navyblueret -- 11/10/2009 12:37:37 AM >
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In the name of 'THE' Mashiach, Man the wall, set the watch, sound the Shofar. Our redemption draws nigh.
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(Joh 14:6 KJV) ... I am the way, the truth, and the life: ...
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/10/2009 1:11:14 AM
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SoulCrushed
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The above post is perhaps the strangest I've ever read...anywhere.
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/10/2009 2:43:17 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Pardon? Is the link not working?
Why do we need Dean L. Overman to "make this case", when this has been the belief of the Church since the beginning, and has been dogma for over 1,500 years?
I don't know what Dean Overman's splinter is going to that mountain of timber....
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/11/2009 10:59:52 AM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Besides have you heard every criticism and learned what to say in response already?
...as a Roman Catholic, I certainly have gotten a lot more of it and become better at responding to it, having participated in this forum for a couple of years...
...its no different with something so universally understood and so fundamental within Christendom, regardless of denomination or Church affiliation...
I believe the conversation starts with non-believers in distinguishing faith from fact, and then describing that a life lived without Jesus is a position taken in faith and lived within that faith, as well (a faith in...nothing...or perhaps "self" or "capitalism", or whatever their personal idol is...).
All we Christians are talking about is faith in something else...
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The dog regularly reads Atlantic Monthly
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/11/2009 11:18:14 AM
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Marcus.
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I get a chuckle out of nonbelievers who say that there aren't any real facts about Jesus. It's things like these apologetics books that help me be ready with the info that these folks have never heard. Even a lot of believers haven't heard about all of the history.
As we're told, "Ours is a historic faith".
< Message edited by Marcus. -- 11/11/2009 11:25:16 AM >
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'Woe unto those who call evil good and good evil." (Isaiah 5:20)
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/25/2009 1:13:57 PM
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Heavendweller
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The foundation of our faith was laid in the first seven ecumenical councils. During the first millenium of the Church, heretics and schismatics taught falsely regarding the nature of Christ. Some taught that Christ only appeared to have a body. Others taught that Christ came as a mode of God and not as God. Others taught that Christ was two persons, divine and human. And many more such heresies. Many of the heresies of this era attacked Orthodox Christology and sought to strip the nature and person of Christ.
In each case, the Church came together and proclaimed the truth about the deity and divinity of Christ. We can read the proclamation of the Church in the early churh Fathers' writings and in the councils. Many of these Fathers became martyrs for the cause of Christ and their words are thus highly instructive for us in our day.
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See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. I John 3:1
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RE: A Case for the Divinity of Jesus: Examining the Ear... - 11/25/2009 6:19:41 PM
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pabrain
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Subject: Jesus is God.
Jesus is God, but He is also man at the same time. Have a look at Isaiah Ch 48 vs 12-16, but don't read the whole of v 16, just yet, read only, "Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there" (ESV).
Now ask yourself, Who is speaking?, the answer can only be, the Lord our GOD, now read the rest of v 16, "And now the Lord GOD has sent me, and his Spirit.". It is clear then that the one speaking in the first part of this verse must be our Lord Jesus, and none other.. An expanded version follows.
Have a look at the verses of Scripture bellow from which I have removed the last line of verse 16, and tell me who is speaking? ..The answer can only be, non other that the Lord God Almighty Himself, our Father.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
Isa 48:14 "All of you, assemble yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; He shall do His pleasure on Babylon,
And His arm shall be against the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; Yes, I have called him, I have brought him, and his way will prosper.
Isa 48:16 "Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; From the time that it was, I was there. (NKJV).
Now read the last line of verse 16, and tell me who was speaking. "And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."
Footnotes: 48:16 The Hebrew verb is singular.
Verse 16, could be rendered as, "And now the Father and His Spirit Have[fn1] sent Me."
Could this verse I wonder be what Jesus had in mind when He said.
Jhn 20:21 So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."
Jhn 20:22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
What do you think?.
Read Matthew Ch 28 v 19, "in the name" not "names", one name, three persons. Now try Colossians Ch 2 v 9, "For in him the whole fullness of Deity dwells bodily" (ESV). That is to say, all there is of the Father, all there is of the Son, and all there is of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside the body of the Lord Jesus Christ.
As I have said before, and will no doubt say again, don't try to understand it, just believe it, God has given you the faith to believe, so use it.
The human mind is totally incapable of comprehending the Trinity, or the Deity of Jesus, so don't try. Remember "Without faith, it is impossible to please God". Better rendered as "Without exercising faith".
All Scripture verses quoted are from the English Standard Version, unless otherwise stated.
At John Ch 14 v 9, Jesus said "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.
John Ch 1 v 18 , reads "No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known".
or "the only one, who is God"; some manuscripts "the only Son".
Note, the Translator's preference is all ways shown in the main text, with possible alternative renderings relegated to footnotes as above.
Now have a look at John Ch 8, vs 24, 28, and 58. Here Jesus identifies Himself three times as "I AM", not "I am he" as some Bible's put it, "he" does not appear in the original Greek. the two words are, "ego eimi", and are taken from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the OT made about 300 BC.
These two words are taken from Exodus Ch 3 v 14, where God told Moses, "Say this to the people of Israel. I AM has sent me to you"... This is the most Sacred, and Holy name/description of the Lord our God it means "I HAVE BEEN WHAT I HAVE BEEN,I AM THAT/WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE". This Title was also understood by the Jews to mean "The perpetually self revealing all existent one".
It was considered so sacred by the Jews, that they were forbidden to pronounce it, when reading Scripture publicly.
There was no doubt in the minds of those who heard Jesus, that He was claiming to be God.
John 10:17-18. Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Note. Only God can raise Himself back from the dead.
Who did Isaiah really see?
Isa 6:1 IN the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple.
Isa 6:2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.
Isa 6:3 And one cried to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!"
Isa 6:4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.
Isa 6:5 So I said: "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King,
The LORD of hosts."
John referring to this passage said.
Jhn 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him,
Jhn 12:38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?"*
Jhn 12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
Jhn 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them."*
Jhn 12:41 These things Isaiah said when* he saw His glory and spoke of Him
So then just who did Isaiah see?
Jhn 5:21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
Jhn 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
Jhn 5:23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
Have a look at the verses bellow, and my comments that follow.
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, œYou must not do that! I am a fellow servant[fn4] with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.
Rev 1:12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands,
Rev 1:13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest.
Rev 1:14 The hairs of his head were white like wool, as white as snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire,
Rev 1:15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters.
Rev 1:16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
Rev 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, œFear not, I am the first and the last,
When John worshiped the angel, at Rev 22:8, he was told not to do so, but to worship God.. It is abundantly clear that the person described at, Rev 1:12-16, is none other than Jesus Himself, who, you will note does, not rebuke him, but accepts john's worship, and goes on to say that He is, "the first and the last,".. This title, or if you prefer, this description is applicable only to Almighty God, the LORD, see the verses from Isaiah, bellow.
Isa 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.
Isa 48:12 "Listen to Me, O Jacob, And Israel, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Now, Salvation.
Mat 1:21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."
Jesus is the savior, but as, Isa 43:11, above says, "I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior.", so they must both be the same, and therefore Jesus is God.
Now, Construction.
Isa 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, And My right hand has stretched out the heavens; When I call to them, They stand up together.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.. Again, It's the same person, Jesus is God.
Ah, you will say, Jesus only became God after his death, as it says at, "Phl 2:9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, . Well if that is the case, how do you explain.
Isa 43:10 "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.. Note, "Nor shall there be after Me."
Now, what about, "John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!", It is possible of course that Thomas made a mistake, but if he did, why did Jesus not correct him, as the angel did at Rev 22:9,, remember, the very first example given above. Jesus accepted being referred to as, "My Lord and my God!", because that is exactly what He is, "My Lord and my God!".
You said.
"I thought Paul said Jesus " did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"!•Philippians 2:6, NIV"
Yes you are right, In the second part of this verse, Paul did say that Jesus, "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped," but why did you not also quote what Paul said in the first part of this same verse, that is.. "Who, being in very nature[fn1] God,"
Footnotes:
2:6 Or in the form of
The NIV Study Bible's comment on verse 6 are.
in very nature God. Affirming that Jesus is fully God (see note on Ro 9:5).nature. Essential form (see NIV text note), the sum of those qualities that make God specifically God. equality with God. The status and privileges that inevitably follow from being in very nature God.
The expression "something to be grasped", is taken from the Greek word "Harpagmos", which literally means "an advantage to be exploited", and therefore a better rendering of this verse would be as in the NRSV, Phil 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,
In other words, it is not saying that Jesus was not equal with God, and that he did not grasp at, or did not wish to have equality with God, but already having equality with God, had no desire to exploit the advantage that being God gave him
You have more than once quoted from the NIV, and therefore, I conclude that it is a translation that you hold in high regard. Please then have a look, as the note above on Phil 2:6, suggests, at Romans Ch 9:5, and the study note comments thereon.
Rom 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![fn1] Amen.
Footnotes:
9:5 Or Christ, who is over all. God be forever praised! Or Christ. God who is over all be forever praised!
Every blessing.
Edwin.
Thank you for your most recent post, have a look at what follows, and let me have your comments.
It is clear from the Scripture passage bellow that, "thirty shekels of silver", is the price, or value of a dead slave. When Judas Iscariot, went to the chief priests
Matt 26:15 and said, "What are you willing to give me to betray Him to you?" And they weighed out thirty pieces of silver to him.. They were in effect saying that in their estimation, Jesus had about as much value as a dead slave. In other words, they were both insulting and contemptuous of him.
Ex 21:28 "If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, the ox shall surely be stoned and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall go unpunished.
Ex 21:29 "If, however, an ox was previously in the habit of goring and its owner has been warned, yet he does not confine it and it kills a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.
Ex 21:30 "If a ransom is demanded of him, then he shall give for the redemption of his life whatever is demanded of him.
Ex 21:31 "Whether it gores a son or a daughter, it shall be done to him according to the same rule.
Ex 21:32 "If the ox gores a male or female slave, the owner shall give his or her master thirty shekels of silver, and the ox shall be stoned.
This contemptuous insult is reflected in our LORD's words, "{that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them." as bellow.
NASB - Zec 11:13 - Then the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter, {that} magnificent price at which I was valued by them." So I took the thirty {shekels} of silver and threw them to the potter in the house of the LORD.
Knowing that you from time to time use the name "Jehovah", and also you like to quote the NIV, I have included two more versions of this verse.
ASV - Zec 11:13 - And Jehovah said unto me, Cast it unto the potter, the goodly price that I was prized at by them. And I took the thirty [pieces] of silver, and cast them unto the potter, in the house of Jehovah.
NIV - Zec 11:13 - And the Lord said to me, Throw it to the potter”the handsome price that I was prized at by them! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
You will have noted, "at which I was valued by them.", and "that I was prized at by them", and "that I was prized at by them".
Surely this can only mean that it is Jehovah who was betrayed for "thirty shekels of silver", and therefore Jehovah and Jesus must be one and the same person?
If not, then the verse should have read, "that My Son was prized at by them".
Now what about
NKJV - Zec 12:10 - "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
NIV - Zec 12:10 - œAnd I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
ESV - Zec 12:10 - œAnd I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
Note. "then they will look on Me whom they pierced", and "They will look on me, the one they have pierced", and, "when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.
I do not see how it is possible to avoid the conclusion that the, "Me", "I", and "Him". are one and the same person? Note also that ESV, uses, "on me, on him whom they have pierced".
I do not think it unreasonable to conclude that when Paul wrote.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
He had in mind, Joel 2:32, three translations of which are given bellow.
NKJV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.
NIV - Joe 2:32 - And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said,
among the survivors whom the LORD calls.
ESV - Joe 2:32 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
In other words, Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirt, was declaring that Jesus is God.
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