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Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/14/2009 1:47:50 AM
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ManimalX
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http://features.csmonitor.com/globalnews/2009/10/13/bagheera-kiplingi-a-vegetarian-spider-joins-worlds-jungle-book/
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Their nearly 40,000 discovered species include eight-legged giants that feed on birds or hunt fish and tiny little demons like North America’s Brown Recluse that are barely larger than a penny but have potent venom. There are the solitary ground-dwelling hunters like the Tarantula and others that look and smell just like ants - the better to safely move among them and eat them.
But all of them, until now, were believed to live only by taking life. That was before Bagheera kiplingi (aptly named for the friendly panther in Rudyard Kipling’s Jungle Book) crept into view.
The recently described species of jumping spider, discovered by researchers from Villanova and Brandeis Universities, dines on the protein rich tips of acacias, the thorny shrubs found in much of Central America. What’s more, it appears capable of eating food raw and digesting it (most spiders spit enzymes onto their prey that digests them externally into what, to spiders, is a tasty liquid).
Wait a minute!!! I seem to recall quite a bit of eye rolling and mockery when I and others suggested in other threads that venomous creatures such as spiders could have had non-carnivorous diets in a pre-flood, pre-meat eating environment...
Mmm mmm mmm.
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/14/2009 1:53:43 AM
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ManimalX
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Of course, I know our friendly neighborhood evolutionary devotees will argue backwards, that this was some sort of evolutionary adaptation that has happened recently. Because, as we know, everything is evidence of evolution!
< Message edited by ManimalX -- 10/14/2009 3:03:19 AM >
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"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/14/2009 10:51:32 AM
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GHitch
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A fascinating little critter to say the least.
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The strategy seems to be successful. Direct observation, video recordings and chemical analyses of such spiders in Mexico and Costa Rica suggest the animals get most of their food from such plants. In the Mexican population, about 90 percent of the spiders' diet came from plant tissue, with the rest made up of ant larvae, nectar and other items. In Costa Rica, the spiders got about 60 percent of their diet from acacia plant tissues.
When the spiders do hunt ant larvae, they mimic the ants' behaviors, for instance by making jerky movements. - Livescience article.
Wonder how they figured out how to mimic ants?!
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For zoologists, though, the most startling aspect of Meehan’s discovery is that spider physiology was thought to make plant-eating impossible.
"Spiders aren’t thought to be capable of eating solid food at all," said Meehan. Normally they secrete enzymes onto their prey to digest them outside the body and then consume what’s left as a kind of soup. B kiplingi, however, eats its vegetables whole. - timesonline article
Of course, evolution did it. No other possibility is allowed! 
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/14/2009 11:48:59 PM
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shakezula
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Wait a minute!!! I seem to recall quite a bit of eye rolling and mockery when I and others suggested in other threads that venomous creatures such as spiders could have had non-carnivorous diets in a pre-flood, pre-meat eating environment...
interesting find, but you still have the same problem. the creationist position is still the same. you propose that spiders were herbivores who suddenly became pure carnivores. if you want to propose that this spider is the spider from which all other spiders evolved, then you're just arguing for rapid evolution. do creationists now propose that spiders scurried over from the Ark to Mexico and then became carnivores?
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/18/2009 9:25:51 PM
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StephenJ
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And what about the herbivoric purpouse for a spider web? And why aren't they still eating plants today? I mean survival is survival.
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/19/2009 12:17:42 AM
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ManimalX
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The point is that a spider can live a happy healthy spider life eating vegetables. That means that the idea of creatures being vegetarian before the Flood is completely in-bounds.
It doesn't mean Bagheera kiplingi is some sort of "prime form" of spiders or any of the other nonsense Shakez is erroneously stating and attributing to me.
It means what it means: a pre-carnivorous vegetarian animal kingdom is possible, and this is a strong piece of evidence for it.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/19/2009 1:16:51 AM
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huangshan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The point is that a spider can live a happy healthy spider life eating vegetables. That means that the idea of creatures being vegetarian before the Flood is completely in-bounds.
Really? Could a black widow survive on a diet of broccoli?
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/19/2009 7:23:48 PM
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StephenJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manimalx
The point is that a spider can live a happy healthy spider life eating vegetables. That means that the idea of creatures being vegetarian before the Flood is completely in-bounds.
It doesn't mean Bagheera kiplingi is some sort of "prime form" of spiders or any of the other nonsense Shakez is erroneously stating and attributing to me.
It means what it means: a pre-carnivorous vegetarian animal kingdom is possible, and this is a strong piece of evidence for it.
I see it as strong evidence for a creature that adapted to it's enviroment, just as predatory spiders are.
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/19/2009 8:31:08 PM
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drmark
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quote:
you propose that spiders were herbivores who suddenly became pure carnivores.
quote:
Really? Could a black widow survive on a diet of broccoli?
Good grief, how many times do we have to review Gen 1:30. Spiders are NOT included in the vegetarian lifestyle commanded by their Creator on day 6. If this is the best argument you evolutionists have against creationism, you're failing fast... 
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/20/2009 2:37:38 AM
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PolarBear
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Huh DrMark? Aren't you guys saying that ALL animals ate only meat before the flood?
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/20/2009 9:00:26 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Huh DrMark? Aren't you guys saying that ALL animals ate only meat before the flood? How do you read Genesis 1:30, PB? MX? Demolay?
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/20/2009 11:10:10 AM
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drmark
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quote:
DrMark, do you not think spiders are beasts of the field that have the breath of life in them? Absolutely not! Do you? Do you know any Hebrew scholars who include invertebrates in this category?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/20/2009 11:25:07 AM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Huh DrMark? Aren't you guys saying that ALL animals ate only meat before the flood? How do you read Genesis 1:30, PB? MX? Demolay?
Genesis 1:29-30 - "29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so."
I assume you are referring to "everything that has the breath of life", nephesh chayah?
I'm not sure what you want answered.
Regarding v.30 specifically:
chayah, translated here "beast" is simply the word that means "to be alive" of "to live".
`owph, translated "bird" means, "flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds, winged insects"
ramas is translated "that creeps" and generally refers to things that walk about lightly or creep or walk on all fours.
nephesh is translated "breath of life" or "has life" means "living, alive, living thing, animal"
It seems to me that Gen 1:30 covers all living things that walk, creep, and fly, including insects since they also breathe.
I'm no Hebrew expert, so if I have gotten it wrong, please fill me in.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/22/2009 12:01:18 PM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
DrMark, do you not think spiders are beasts of the field that have the breath of life in them? Absolutely not! Do you? Do you know any Hebrew scholars who include invertebrates in this category?
Interesting. So spiders ate insects -- and there was death before the fall. So you now agree with me that death in Romans 5 does not necessarily cover *all* animal death. I see progress here!
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Who Is This God: Can a ministry-driven film be developed collaboratively on Twitter? (Currently tweeting through Isaiah 40+)
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/22/2009 12:15:10 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Interesting. So spiders ate insects -- and there was death before the fall. So you now agree with me that death in Romans 5 does not necessarily cover *all* animal death. I see progress here! I am really disappointed in my feeble ability to get across this very simple point. I will try one last time since you've been gone a while, PB, and I've missed you...
Plants and invertebrates and fish are not "soulish" living organisms because they do not have the "breath of life" in them. [In fact, they do NOT breathe without airways and lungs, MX, they may respire aerobically however.] Thus, these organisms do not experience death in the biblical sense of the word as related in Genesis 1 and Romans 5. I continue to maintain there was no physical death of soulish creatures until the Fall and Curse [sorry, PB, no progress toward unsound doctrine yet!].
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/22/2009 8:37:41 PM
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ataraxical
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
It means what it means: a pre-carnivorous vegetarian animal kingdom is possible, and this is a strong piece of evidence for it.
I always find this funny, since if we're discussing the role of an all-powerful God in the natural realm, what limitations are the 'natural laws' at all? Anything and everything is possible really. For all we know God magicly changed everything, against all our understanding of 'natural laws'. For all we know God created this vegitarian spider last week, just for kicks. Its a big problem. We discuss 'natural laws' and try to find natural explanations for events that are apparently grounded in supernatural activity.
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/23/2009 1:56:43 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PolarBear
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
DrMark, do you not think spiders are beasts of the field that have the breath of life in them? Absolutely not! Do you? Do you know any Hebrew scholars who include invertebrates in this category?
Interesting. So spiders ate insects -- and there was death before the fall. So you now agree with me that death in Romans 5 does not necessarily cover *all* animal death. I see progress here!
You're just toying with us here. There's no way this was a serious comment, not from someone who's been on this forum since 2005.
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/23/2009 4:06:02 PM
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demolay
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Huh DrMark? Aren't you guys saying that ALL animals ate only meat before the flood? How do you read Genesis 1:30, PB? MX? Demolay?
I don't think I have dogmatic views on this. I believe sometimes we can get some idea of what life was like BEFORE the curse fell upon us by reading what God says it will be like AFTER the curse is lifted.
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"The wolf and lamb will graze the same meadow, the lion and ox eat straw from the same trough, but snakes--they'll get a diet of dirt! Neither animal nor human will hurt or kill anywhere on my Holy Mountain," says GOD. Isa 65:25
So I don't think Adam could have stuck his hand behind a bush and gotten a nasty black widow spider bite before the fall. Whether that means the spider COULDN'T or just WOULDN'T, I can't be dogmatic. Also, after the flood, the Word only says that MAN was now blessed to eat any creature. When this occured for spiders or other beasts, I couldn't say.
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/23/2009 6:27:34 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: demolay
Whether that means the spider COULDN'T or just WOULDN'T, I can't be dogmatic. Also, after the flood, the Word only says that MAN was now blessed to eat any creature. When this occured for spiders or other beasts, I couldn't say.
Good points about looking into the future to understand the past. The distinction between couldn't and wouldn't.... both still result in didn't, IMO. Maybe some spiders were made with venom that could kill, but for whatever reasons it wouldn't have worked on humans before the Fall.
_____________________________
"And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth." - 2nd Timothy 2:24,25
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/24/2009 3:10:18 PM
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PolarBear
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Plants and invertebrates and fish are not "soulish" living organisms because they do not have the "breath of life" in them. [In fact, they do NOT breathe without airways and lungs, MX, they may respire aerobically however.] Thus, these organisms do not experience death in the biblical sense of the word as related in Genesis 1 and Romans 5. I continue to maintain there was no physical death of soulish creatures until the Fall and Curse [sorry, PB, no progress toward unsound doctrine yet!].
Ok that makes some sense. And I'm glad you're not headed towards unsound doctrine, whatever unsound doctrine is ...
quote:
You're just toying with us here. There's no way this was a serious comment, not from someone who's been on this forum since 2005.
Note sure why it couldn't be taken as serious. And I've been on since 1999. It got reset in 2005.
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Who Is This God: Can a ministry-driven film be developed collaboratively on Twitter? (Currently tweeting through Isaiah 40+)
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RE: Meet 'Bagheera kiplingi', The Vegetarian Spider - 10/24/2009 3:12:55 PM
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drmark
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quote:
And I'm glad you're not headed towards unsound doctrine, whatever unsound doctrine is ... One bit of unsound doctrine is the notion that Romans 5:12 is speaking only about spiritual death. This is obviously incorrect in light of 1 Cor 15 - if resurrection is physical, then death is physical!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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