RE: Catholic Documents Examined

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WesP -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/6/2006 1:57:36 PM)
quote: We are talking about tolerance here, not correctness. There's a difference. The Catholic Church is stating a tolerance for other Faiths (hey, we've been tolerating Protestants for 500 years now) - not espousing their validity or correctness. quote: 3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Read the above carefully, please. Where do you see, "we tolerate the Muslims" ? I see them saying we have the same God. Not true. No twist of words. Straight acceptance of their god as being God. False doctrine! BTW, thanks for your "tolerance".

WesP -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/6/2006 2:00:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME_II quote: ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace Do you claim the excerpt I used is invalid? It came from a Catholic website. It is in English. You think Latin cannot be translated into English? How about Greek and Hebrew? You have posted the quote - and then supplied your own meaning. On what authority do you presume to know more than the people who wrote the material you are citing? I can read. Great authority granted to me starting at the age of 4! You read what the Koran says about their god, and you will see the difference. I understand that you accept Catholic doctrine without question, but you should not treat me like an embicile because you refuse to check it for yourself. That's totally unfair and unreasonable.

WesP -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/6/2006 2:01:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME_II Getting back to this. What is it that you have a problem with again? Does Islam adore one God, merciful and all powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth? Or does it not? It does not. The "god" of Islam is not the creator of heaven and earth. They may believe it to be that, but their idol created nothing. quote: How is Islam not unlike Judaism - a God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus? In my mind, this makes Islam different than - Budhism, for example. A "God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus" is a contradiction in terms. Those who deny the Son deny the Father as well. Judaism that denys Jesus Christ is not the Judaism that God started, it is a perversion that is following after idols. No one knows the Father except the Son, and those the Son reveals Him to. If someone does not worship Jesus Christ, they do not worship the Father and they do not worship the one and only God. EXACTLY!!! That is my point. Thank you, figmentPez!

bridgefin -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/6/2006 3:39:23 PM)
Wes, quote: By reading this post and comparing it to one on Catholic salvation, I think I see where we are having a problem. By your statements, I think you are telling me that you can only hope to be saved. Is this correct? I would think Christians have peace because they know they will be in heaven with God Almighty in the end. Do you also think only martyrs are guaranteed this status? I ask this because Christian people die everyday for God. What gives them the peace and strength to do this without knowing that they will see Jesus and be with Him afterwards? And if they do know, then they know they have salvation not just hope of salvation, which is what I said. Yes, you are correct. Catholics have a hope of salvation which is granted only by Jesus when He judges each and every person upon death...unless you happen to be hanging on a cross next to Him. Thus we might say that we were saved at Baptism, that we continue to work out our salvation (cooperating with the life-saving grace provided by God) during our lives and live in the hope that we will be judged as saved when we die. We live in hope not with any assurance. You do too but I'll bet you would not say it in those terms. A professed Christian who dies having committed some grevious and sinful act before he dies is said to never have been saved. He thought he had the assurance of salvation but in truth he never had it. So, you really don't know that you were saved until you die wothout having committed some grevious and sinful act. Until then you could find out that you were never saved to begin with. In Christ, George

ukfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/6/2006 3:53:10 PM)
Catholicism does not teach that Muslims worship the fullness of God, worship in the manner that He desires, or that Muslim faith will save them. Muslims are deficient in their belief of God. What Catholicism does do, is acknowledge that Muslims trace their God to the God of Abraham. ....and then that belief in God was perverted. It's a rather simple teaching. The all or nothing belief that many are proposing is ridiculous. I have a 2 yo neice and for the life of her she cannot grasp the fact that her daddy is also my brother. "No, that's my daddy!" Well, because she can't grasp that, does it mean she doesn't know who her father is? If she has mistaken beliefs about his job and what he does at work did she just 'invent' a new daddy?

MrSteve -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/6/2006 7:14:58 PM)
quote: they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. I'm missing something in my understanding of what muslims believe and practice and this seeming praise for them......

WesP -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 9:11:28 AM)
quote: The all or nothing belief that many are proposing is ridiculous. I have a 2 yo neice and for the life of her she cannot grasp the fact that her daddy is also my brother. "No, that's my daddy!" Well, because she can't grasp that, does it mean she doesn't know who her father is? If she has mistaken beliefs about his job and what he does at work did she just 'invent' a new daddy? We are at an impasse and will continue to be because you fail to respond to exactly what the document states. Furthermore, I get snide retorts like the above, which does not help at all. I would appreciate it if you guys would stick to the discussion without the subtle references to insinuate lack of intelligence on the part of anyone who disagrees with you. Read back through the thread, and you will see that this is constant. What you claim is a simple teaching is only a part of what the document says. I did not dispute most of what you said. To see what I dispute reread posts 2, 4, 9, 13, and 26.

Lurker -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 11:47:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrSteve quote: they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. I'm missing something in my understanding of what muslims believe and practice and this seeming praise for them...... I might not agree with some of my Protestant bretheren, but that doesn't mean I can't admire their zeal for serving God and spreading the message of Jesus. And while I might feel my Muslim friend has been decieved into following a corrupted image of God, that doesn't mean I can't admire their devotion to serving God as best they understand it. My job as a Christian then would not be to take away their devotion to serving God, but rather, to help them know the fullness of God which comes from the Christian faith.

GoodME_II -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 1:13:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez A "God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus" is a contradiction in terms. Those who deny the Son deny the Father as well. Judaism that denys Jesus Christ is not the Judaism that God started, it is a perversion that is following after idols. So, given this understanding and lack of tolerance, where does the evangelical conversation begin? And does one hold a dove or a baseball bat?

facedown -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 1:41:07 PM)
goodme- hehehe

figmentPez -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 2:29:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME_II quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez A "God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus" is a contradiction in terms. Those who deny the Son deny the Father as well. Judaism that denys Jesus Christ is not the Judaism that God started, it is a perversion that is following after idols. So, given this understanding and lack of tolerance, where does the evangelical conversation begin? And does one hold a dove or a baseball bat? Why should I tolerate false teaching? Will Jesus Christ be tolerant of those who have rejected Him before men? Why can't I just preach the truth of the Gospel, and not have to worry about trying to molly-coddle those who are following after idols?

Lurker -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 2:38:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME_II quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez A "God-centered Faith that does not acknowledge Jesus" is a contradiction in terms. Those who deny the Son deny the Father as well. Judaism that denys Jesus Christ is not the Judaism that God started, it is a perversion that is following after idols. So, given this understanding and lack of tolerance, where does the evangelical conversation begin? And does one hold a dove or a baseball bat? Why should I tolerate false teaching? Will Jesus Christ be tolerant of those who have rejected Him before men? Why can't I just preach the truth of the Gospel, and not have to worry about trying to molly-coddle those who are following after idols? Romans 12:20 maybe? Rather than preach by words, preach by actions. Show them love, patience, and kindness. Preach the truth of the Gospel through your life.

figmentPez -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 2:41:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lurker Romans 12:20 maybe? Rather than preach by words, preach by actions. Show them love, patience, and kindness. Preach the truth of the Gospel through your life. And I can't do that if I don't pretend that their false idols are the real God?

lw9 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 3:19:54 PM)
The RCC's stance on Islam has been made consistently clear not only from 'Nostra Aetate', but the Catechism and general speeches of JPII: RCC Catechism The Church and non-Christians 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM Pastoral journey of John Paul II to Nigeria, meeting with Muslim leaders Address of John Paul II Sunday, 22 March 1998 2. As Christians and Muslims, we share belief in "the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day". Though we differ in the way we understand this One God, we are nevertheless akin in our efforts to know and follow his will. That religious aspiration itself constitutes a spiritual bond between Christians and Muslims, a bond which can provide a firm and broad- ranging basis for cooperation in many fields. http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/travels/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_22031998_nigeria-muslim_en.html John Paul II General Audience Wednesday 5 May 1999 2. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: �We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection� (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497). The patrimony of revealed texts in the Bible speaks unanimously of the oneness of God. Jesus himself reaffirms it, making Israel's profession his own: �The Lord our God, the Lord is one� (Mk 12:29; cf. Dt 6:4-5). This oneness is also affirmed in the words of praise that spring from the heart of the Apostle Paul: �To the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen� (1 Tm 1:17). http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_05051999_en.html Some here have questioned whether the god of Islam is the same as the God of the Bible. The Koran speaks for itself: Sura 4:165 The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, �Three.� God is only One God. Sura 5:75-80 They are unbelievers [and blaspheme] who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah - Allah will forbid him the garden and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help. Sura 5:75-80 The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a Messenger; Messengers before Him passed away; his mother was just woman; they both ate food. Sura 98:30 The Jews say �Ezra is the Son of God�; the Christians say, �The Messiah is the Son of God.� That is the utterance of their mouths, conforming wth the unbelievers before them. Allah assail them! How they are perverted! They have taken their rabbis and their monks as lords apart from God, and the Messiah, Mary�s son � and they were commanded to serve but One Allah; there is no god but He; The Lord did not inspire Mohammed to write those words so clearly rejecting Jesus Christ. Since they deny Jesus Christ, they do not worship the same God as Christians, who is also the God of Abraham. YET, the RCC proclaims a false god to be the same as the one true God. This is flat-out universalism. I'm wondering at this point how anyone can honestly justify the RCC's position.

bshwckr88 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 3:41:08 PM)
I have recently had a discussion with a muslim, and he told me that he believes that there is no God but his God. And i statrted to question him, asking about miracles and wonders. He told me that they pray for healings and miracles, but they never happen. I did not say anything, but inside I was thinking to myself, "I know why." The reason is because they worship a false God. There is noother God but ours. Period. Islam believes that Jesus existed and that he was just another really good person. They even accept some of his teachings, however, he is not their great prophet, theirs is Muhammad. Now Muhammad suposedly saw the angel of gabriel and heard a message from him. Muhammad was haunted by his encounters with the supernatural and even often times contemplated suicide. Muhammad was also a man that lived in Sin. Islam even believes that Jesus had power over the supernatural. but they reject his resurrection and crucifiction. Now why would God choose Muhammad as a prophet, a man who lived in Sin, even after his encounters with Gabriel, and why would Jesus have power over the supernatural, but their actual prophet not? And if they pray for miracles, then where are they? Besides there is also no other book but the bible to live by, the Koran can not be as extension of the Bible in any way shape or form.

GoodME_II -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 4:01:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez Why should I tolerate false teaching? Will Jesus Christ be tolerant of those who have rejected Him before men? Why can't I just preach the truth of the Gospel, and not have to worry about trying to molly-coddle those who are following after idols? The orginal Apostles had nothing but "unbelievers" from which to start Christianity. If they had this attitude, there would be no Christianity today. The reality of Faith is that there needs to be a path of conversion. And conversion starts with caring. How are we to win souls, while simultaneously rejecting and ostracizing them??

figmentPez -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 4:08:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME_II quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez Why should I tolerate false teaching? Will Jesus Christ be tolerant of those who have rejected Him before men? Why can't I just preach the truth of the Gospel, and not have to worry about trying to molly-coddle those who are following after idols? The orginal Apostles had nothing but "unbelievers" from which to start Christianity. If they had this attitude, there would be no Christianity today. The reality of Faith is that there needs to be a path of conversion. And conversion starts with caring. How are we to win souls, while simultaneously rejecting and ostracizing them?? If the Apostles had been content to let people go on believing that they could worship God without worshipping Jesus Christ, there would be no Christianity today. I have said nothing about not caring or ostracizing anyone. All I advocate is the truth, which is that those who do not recognize Jesus Christ as God, do not know God. Matthew 11:27 " All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

ukfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 4:25:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace We are at an impasse and will continue to be because you fail to respond to exactly what the document states. "In our time, when day by day mankind is being drawn closer together, and the ties between different peoples are becoming stronger, the Church examines more closely he relationship to non- Christian religions. In her task of promoting unity and love among men, indeed among nations, she considers above all in this declaration what men have in common and what draws them to fellowship." Nostra Aetate is simply trying to foster dialogue between Catholicism and non-Christian religions. It does this by acknowledging the truth, albeit a limited truth, that they have. It does not claim that the truth they contain is sufficient. This is in the direct spirit of Paul in the book of Acts, Act 17:22-23 So Paul stood before the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I see that you are very religious in all respects. For as I went around and observed closely your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: 'To an unknown god.' Therefore what you worship without knowing it, this I proclaim to you. Paul complimented them on their faith and the truth that they had. He did not say (and neither does Nostra Aetate) their faith is sufficient but said this to them to foster communication with them about the Gospel. quote: Furthermore, I get snide retorts like the above, which does not help at all. I would appreciate it if you guys would stick to the discussion without the subtle references to insinuate lack of intelligence on the part of anyone who disagrees with you. Read back through the thread, and you will see that this is constant. What you claim is a simple teaching is only a part of what the document says. I did not dispute most of what you said. To see what I dispute reread posts 2, 4, 9, 13, and 26. The above was a rather simplistic analogy not a dig at anyone's intelligence and it deals specifically with your objection. You claim that because the Muslim faith has a perverted/deficient view of God that they have invented a new god. As I tried to show with my analogy, a perverted or deficient idea does not mean that a person has invented an entirely new idea.

bridgefin -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/7/2006 5:22:28 PM)
UKfan, quote: Paul complimented them on their faith and the truth that they had. He did not say (and neither does Nostra Aetate) their faith is sufficient but said this to them to foster communication with them about the Gospel. Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. How else do you start a dialogue but with those things that you have in common, whether they are Greeks or Muslims. In Christ, George

jgb321 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/8/2006 10:15:43 AM)
Not sure if this is the right place to post this, so here goes. I wrote this article recently, outlining just how easy it was for Freemasons and Atheists to help go about creating the Second Vatican Council of the 1960s (rare pictures too.) Look forward to hearing what others have to say. [link which violates TOS removed by moderator]

ukfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/8/2006 10:58:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoodME_II You are likely to find a notable absence of we Catholic posters in this thread, in my opinion. Especially if this gets as silly as I am betting it is going to get. That didn't take long....

lw9 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/8/2006 11:48:26 AM)
quote: UKfan writes: Nostra Aetate is simply trying to foster dialogue between Catholicism and non-Christian religions. It does this by acknowledging the truth, albeit a limited truth, that they have. It does not claim that the truth they contain is sufficient. Please see post #39. God is not going to reveal a half truth or a false god or a false religion to anyone. He reveals only the truth [1 Jn 5:6-7], and He has already revealed the truth in full [Col 1:25-28]. Because there is only one truth, God is not 'found' in false religion, yet the RCC clearly proclaims the god of Islam TO BE the God of the Holy Bible [false god = true God]. How do you explain this knowing the Koran denies Jesus Christ and therefore could never, ever have been inspired by the God of the Holy Bible and does not hold the truth? Thanks.

ukfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/8/2006 2:21:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lw9 quote: UKfan writes: Nostra Aetate is simply trying to foster dialogue between Catholicism and non-Christian religions. It does this by acknowledging the truth, albeit a limited truth, that they have. It does not claim that the truth they contain is sufficient. Please see post #39. God is not going to reveal a half truth or a false god or a false religion to anyone. I've always wanted to say this...where is that in the bible? [:D]In Acts in the example I've already given, Paul used an incomplete view of God to reach the Athenians. How do you respond to this verse? quote: He reveals only the truth [1 Jn 5:6-7], and He has already revealed the truth in full [Col 1:25-28]. We, as simple humans, can still not fully grasp our triune God, 2000 years after Christ's resurrection, and the relationship between the persons, hence we do not know the fullness of our God. Do we worship a false God? quote: Because there is only one truth, God is not 'found' in false religion, yet the RCC clearly proclaims the god of Islam TO BE the God of the Holy Bible [false god = true God]. Paul did not agree with your assesment in Acts. How do you rectify that portion of scripture with your belief?

figmentPez -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/8/2006 4:12:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ukfan I've always wanted to say this...where is that in the bible? [:D]In Acts in the example I've already given, Paul used an incomplete view of God to reach the Athenians. How do you respond to this verse? Paul came to them to explain a God they did not know. As I understand it, in the polytheistic atmosphere of Athens the people wanted to worship the most powerful god because they were afraid that a more powerful god who was unworshipped would punish them. That's why there was a statue "to an unknown god", to cover their bases so to speak. Paul proclaimed to them that more powerful god they didn't know, he proclaimed to them the true God that they had been missing all along. How someone can relate that to telling Muslims that they already know God is beyond my understanding. Paul told them "you don't know God, but I am here to tell you about Him, since you know a greater god than what you've been worshipping exists". One cannot say the same thing to Muslims. They both claim to know God, and they reject Jesus Christ. Paul played on the Athenian's professed ignorance, while Muslims profess wisdom. (An odd contrast, especially given that Athens is named after the Greek goddess of wisdom.) quote: We, as simple humans, can still not fully grasp our triune God, 2000 years after Christ's resurrection, and the relationship between the persons, hence we do not know the fullness of our God. Do we worship a false God? We Christians know the Son, and the Son has revealed the Father to us. Muslims reject the Son, and therefore do not know the Father. How well we know God is irrelevant, Muslims do not know God at all.

ukfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/8/2006 4:43:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: figmentPez Paul came to them to explain a God they did not know. As I understand it, in the polytheistic atmosphere of Athens the people wanted to worship the most powerful god because they were afraid that a more powerful god who was unworshipped would punish them. That's why there was a statue "to an unknown god", to cover their bases so to speak. Paul proclaimed to them that more powerful god they didn't know, he proclaimed to them the true God that they had been missing all along. How someone can relate that to telling Muslims that they already know God is beyond my understanding. Paul told them "you don't know God, but I am here to tell you about Him, since you know a greater god than what you've been worshipping exists". Ah, but that is not what Paul said, " For as I went around and observed closely your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: 'To an unknown god.' Therefore what you worship without knowing it, this I proclaim to you." Paul did not say a greater god exists that they could worship, he said they were worshipping God, just that they didn't know it and that he was there to tell them more fully about Him. quote: We Christians know the Son, and the Son has revealed the Father to us. Muslims reject the Son, and therefore do not know the Father. How well we know God is irrelevant, Muslims do not know God at all. Athenians did not know the Son yet Paul claimed they worshipped God. How do you reckon your belief with the missionary work of Paul in Areopagus?

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