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JuliaHop -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/13/2006 4:50:03 PM)

And how does it help a lost soul to tell them that they are doing a good thing by believing a lie? Who did the RCC help with their statement?



lw9 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/13/2006 6:06:34 PM)

GoodMeII:

quote:

People begin to come to God by believing in a higher power. We do not reject these "baby-steps" as undesirable or unessential for some, and note that this path may very well be "the plan of Salvation" for these individuals.


So... now Buddhism, Taoism, and Islam can be a path to the truth and to salvation? Where can I find this 'universal path of salvation through a false religion' taught in the Bible? God makes it clear there is ONLY one path and one truth, and it's non-negotiable:

Jn 14:6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Matt 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Jn 1:17 "For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.."

Where is the scriptural support that 'baby steps' of faith in false gods leads to Jesus Christ? We innately know God exists because of creation, not because of 'faith' in a false religion:

Rom 1:20 For since creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened..

People come to God because He calls them:

Jn 6:65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled him.”

Jn 6:43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets; ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him come to me.”

We are enabled by God, and called to faith through the gospel of Jesus Christ:

Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

2 Thess 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Those are the Biblical facts. We are not called to Christ through false gods or false religions. False gods lead only to damnation, not to salvation. People are to be encouraged to REPENT of false religion and come out of it... not encouraged to remain in it. JuliaHop is absolutely correct: the RCC is promoting a lie that it helps no one. It will only deceive a great many.



GoodME_II -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/13/2006 6:24:20 PM)

If a Muslim and I are looking at an object, and I see it as a bright round object, green in color, with a red stripe running around its horizontal axis, and a picture of a purple kangaroo just underneath the red stripe, the Muslim and I can begin to have a convertsation about the object if he says, "gee, that object sure is bright".

Does that make any sense?



lw9 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/13/2006 7:14:36 PM)

GoodMeII:

quote:

If a Muslim and I are looking at an object, and I see it as a bright round object, green in color, with a red stripe running around its horizontal axis, and a picture of a purple kangaroo just underneath the red stripe, the Muslim and I can begin to have a convertsation about the object if he says, "gee, that object sure is bright".

Does that make any sense?


The way to have a conversation with Muslims? Witness the gospel of Jesus Christ. The power is in the gospel, just as the Bible says, not in your ability to find similarities. The RCC did not have to proclaim Allah to be God to have a conversation with Muslims, period. It’s unBiblical, it's unnecessary, and it’s a lie. Witnessing the truth does not include presenting a lie. Witnessing the truth does include presenting Jesus Christ as the only truth and the only path to salvation. The RCC chose to take this step of universalism on their own, and many will be deceived because of that step. I realize we are not going to agree, and that’s okay. That’s my firm stance, though.



JuliaHop -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/13/2006 7:16:12 PM)

LW9, thank you for your beautiful answer in post #77.



ukfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/13/2006 7:26:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JuliaHop

And how does it help a lost soul to tell them that they are doing a good thing by believing a lie? Who did the RCC help with their statement?


This of course begs the question that Nostra Aetate states a lie, a position that, if honestly examined, proves difficult to purport.



gatolover -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/13/2006 11:41:38 PM)

Greetings Julia,

quote:

And how does it help a lost soul to tell them that they are doing a good thing by believing a lie?


I haven't noticed anyone telling a lost soul that they are doing a good thing by believing a lie. Not sure how you came up with that interpretation.

quote:

Who did the RCC help with their statement?


All directives coming from the Vatican are meant to aid the Catholic faithful in order to guide us on our journey. I don't understand why the Pope's statements are even an issue worthy of debate in a non-Catholic Christian community. The statement is a directive toward Catholic Christians. The Church merely reiterated our call to the patience and love exhibited by Her Savior, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in an effort to help us understand the ecumenical nature and patience we are called to as members of Christ's Body. Don't forget, our Lord dined with sinners and tax collectors, and even asked a Samaritan woman for water! If the statement helped a bigoted Catholic see the light that he has no right to judge, for that is God's perogative alone, then the statement was well worth the effort.

I am truly puzzled over the negative reaction from Christians who deny everything that has been stated by the Vatican since forever, yet this particular issue appears to be a sticking point. Why do you care what the Vatican says?

Any statement by any authority must be understood in the context it was written and the intended audience must also be considered before any critics have a right to critique, IMHO...unless it's the evening news or newspapers. I find it incredibly ironic that there are some folks who claim to pay no attention to the Vatican or the Catholic Church in general, yet they feel a need to comment on statements made in Vatican II.

Why is that?

Pax Christi



JuliaHop -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/14/2006 12:36:03 AM)

My concern would only be that this document could teach that the God worshipped by those in the Islam religion is the same God worshipped by Christians. That the denial of Jesus Christ as God, and the Savior, would be brushed aside and the urgency to evangelize would be stilled.

People care what the Vatican says because of the size of the RCC and the influence the RCC has on world affairs. The pope is considered by many to be a spokesperson for all of Christianity.



gatolover -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/14/2006 12:41:46 AM)

Dear JuliaHop,

quote:

My concern would only be that this document could teach that the God worshipped by those in the Islam religion is the same God worshipped by Christians. That the denial of Jesus Christ as God, and the Savior, would be brushed aside and the urgency to evangelize would be stilled.


How did the document force you to come to the conclusion that evangelism would be "brushed aside?"

quote:

People care what the Vatican says because of the size of the RCC and the influence the RCC has on world affairs. The pope is considered by many to be a spokesperson for all of Christianity.


Rather telling, IMHO.

I appreciate the dialogue.

God bless and good night.



milesjesu -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/14/2006 12:43:17 AM)

lw9,

Where would you classify the God of the Jews? Can they be saved?

Is their understanding of God the same as Christians? Is their God "the Lord Jesus Christ?"

Peace,

MilesJesu



facedown -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/14/2006 6:54:40 AM)

i thought i would begin by quoting this post, because it addresses a number of statements made since then:
quote:

the 'plan of salvation' includes all - indeed 'the whole world'. this doesn't suggest that the 'whole world' and their worship of false gods is acceptable. and just because God is reconcilling the "whole world" to Himself through Christ - doesn't mean that those wolves who do not desire to live within the Kingdom will.

in addition, such a statement must be held in light to at least the following: the Church of Rome teaches/believes/upholds that Jesus is the way - the truth -and the life, no one comes to the Father, except through Christ.

and, why would you link to the index page, rather than the actual page where you quoted from? which is here

and how does: The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved relate to your concern (843)?
and how does: "Outside the Church there is no salvation"...means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body (846) fit in?

so, the issue may not be "universal salvation" or that some are presenting that all roads lead to rome. but possibly, that God is absolute - that none are with excuse - that God reveals God - that all space is sacred and actively being transformed by God.
maybe, the issue isn't about 'roads', because this mentality gets us into a linear thinking that if i get onto A street and follow that down to 132 Ave, and turn left at Washington Blvd and keep on it, it will take me downtown. you see - this world view presents an exclusive philosophy that isn't supported by Scripture.
if you zoom away from the map, and you can view all the roads, one may find that God isn't 'Downtown' (though He is most certainly there)- but God is the City - the Kingdom - the Entirety.



GoodME_II -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/16/2006 2:11:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: facedown
...the issue isn't about 'roads', because this mentality gets us into a linear thinking that if i get onto A street and follow that down to 132 Ave, and turn left at Washington Blvd and keep on it, it will take me downtown. you see - this world view presents an exclusive philosophy that isn't supported by Scripture.

Exactly.

This document is as much about getting Catholics to evangelize to Muslims as it is anything else. The example to the linear thinking is an appeal to the Western mind, not the Eastern - as Facedown so accurately highlights.

The EO I believe may be having better luck in these areas at this time because of the shared thinking (linear versus spatial) of "East to East" versus "West to East".

The document is intended as instruction to Roman Catholics and is about motivating the proper evangelical mindset - that within some percentage of Muslims, there may very well be some unawakened converts. IF you deny that there are any potential converts within Islam, then continue to condemn these people at your own peril.

Good post, Facedown.



Purdin347 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (3/20/2007 11:18:01 AM)

hi

I totoally agree with figmentPez, if you don't have Jesus as savior You don't have the Father, anything that, gives another religion that denies Jesus, equal billing is wrong.



turretinfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (3/20/2007 11:52:39 AM)

Dear Purdin,

And that is a critical point: earlier Catholic teachings recognized that Islam is a false religion: Vatican II claims that Muslims worship the true God. You cannot have it both ways. Even the Koran is clear in its distinction of the religion of the false prophet (may the name of the ungodly perish) from that of Christ.

IF -- and it is a very big if -- the Roman Catholics worship the same god as the Muslims we can be absolutely sure of one thing: it is not Jesus Christ.

-Turretinfan



Soxfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (3/20/2007 12:13:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: turretinfan

..IF -- and it is a very big if -- the Roman Catholics worship the same god as the Muslims we can be absolutely sure of one thing: it is not Jesus Christ.

-Turretinfan


AMEN!!!



Ezra -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (3/20/2007 10:28:51 PM)

quote:


I feel it is simply semantics. Catholics and Vatican II acknowledge that Muslims do not worship the fullness of God or obey in the manner He asks but to refuse to recognise the roots of their God go back to Abraham is just wrong. Yes, the Muslim idea of God has perverted with time but the core being is the God of Abraham.


It is not semantics but reality. If what you claim is true, then Ishmael would not have usurped Isaac in the Koran, neither would Christ be simply a prophet who never really died and rose again, but He would be proclaimed to be the Son of God and the great I AM.

Islam was a total rejection of the Deity of Christ and the unity of the triune Godhead. Hence it is Antichrist. The god of Islam cannot be the Lord God Almighty, but he is a caricature of the same. In light of this, you can determine how much validity Vatican II has.



thebreeze -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (3/23/2007 2:33:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:


I feel it is simply semantics. Catholics and Vatican II acknowledge that Muslims do not worship the fullness of God or obey in the manner He asks but to refuse to recognise the roots of their God go back to Abraham is just wrong. Yes, the Muslim idea of God has perverted with time but the core being is the God of Abraham.


It is not semantics but reality. If what you claim is true, then Ishmael would not have usurped Isaac in the Koran, neither would Christ be simply a prophet who never really died and rose again, but He would be proclaimed to be the Son of God and the great I AM.

Islam was a total rejection of the Deity of Christ and the unity of the triune Godhead. Hence it is Antichrist. The god of Islam cannot be the Lord God Almighty, but he is a caricature of the same. In light of this, you can determine how much validity Vatican II has.
amen.



LivingForChrist07 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (3/26/2007 1:40:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GoodME_II

If a Muslim and I are looking at an object, and I see it as a bright round object, green in color, with a red stripe running around its horizontal axis, and a picture of a purple kangaroo just underneath the red stripe, the Muslim and I can begin to have a convertsation about the object if he says, "gee, that object sure is bright".

Does that make any sense?
You make God sound like a subject feeling and perceived and is different for every person which is fallacious. You make God sound as though He is some sort of subjective aesthetical flavor. Read 1 John 4:1-2; since Moslems deny Christ has come in the flesh they have a false spirit and therefore do not know God. Read Isaiah 55:20-22 where praying to a god who can not save is foolish. By your logic Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Muslims, etc. all have a subjective interpretation about an objective truth and an objective reality but are all "correct." Since they all deny that Christ came in the flesh they do not worship our God but have the spirit of the anti-Christ. As long as a Moslem denies the Trinity he can not have the same Being as a Christian.



turretinfan -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (3/26/2007 11:18:14 AM)

Here's a link to an article that illustrates the conflict between

On the pro-salvation for Muslims side:

Vatican II and CCC; and

On the anti-salvation for Muslims side:

The Council of Florence.

http://www.aomin.org/index.php?itemid=1867

Are Muslims saved or not? Before Vatican II the answer from the RCC was "no," and after Vatican II the answer from the RCC is "yes."

-Turretinfan



Mannamuncher -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (12/2/2007 10:15:27 PM)

Why are the combined documents of the RCC elect

more voluminous than The Writing of God's Holy Word ?



How does the RCC justify the writings of their denomination

when their is no mention of their belief outside their clique ?



The continuous successive pontification of erroneous belief

does not validate anything other than consistent error.



SD456 -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (12/3/2007 1:06:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bridgefin

Wes,
The diety of Islam is the God of Abram who is the Lord God Almighty. Those are facts. Where is the problem?

In Christ, George


The deity of Islam is the false moon god, Allah. The moon god was the top god of the over 300 gods that the arab nations worshipped before Islam. Mohammed's family worshipped the moon god and when Mohammed developed the religion of Islam he made their moon god the only god and demanded that all the arab tribes quit worshipping the other gods and worship only allah. He also equated this moon god with Abraham's God. That's one of the reasons the crescent moon is the symbol for Islam. This is from a book written by a christian muslim which Voice of the Martyrs sells on the history of Islam.



JesKlu -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (12/18/2007 12:40:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lw9

ukfan:

quote:

lw9: God is not going to reveal a half truth or a false god or a false religion to anyone.


quote:

ukfan: I've always wanted to say this...where is that in the bible?


1 Jn 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Jn 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

1 Jn 4:6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

quote:

In Acts in the example I've already given, Paul used an incomplete view of God to reach the Athenians. How do you respond to this verse?


The altar was to an UNKNOWN god... meaning they had no knowledge or even a name for this god. Paul filled in their lack of knowledge with the truth. He wasn't commending them on their the worship of a known pagan god or pointing to the 'truth' in a pagan god or attempting to combine a pagan god into the true God.

quote:

We, as simple humans, can still not fully grasp our triune God, 2000 years after Christ's resurrection, and the relationship between the persons, hence we do not know the fullness of our God. Do we worship a false God?


I don't see your logic here. If a person has faith in Jesus Christ, the true God, they have the truth and are saved. Muslims reject Jesus Christ, which makes them not only followers of a false god, but according to the Bible they are anti-Christs.

1 Jn 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.

quote:

lw9: Because there is only one truth, God is not 'found' in false religion, yet the RCC clearly proclaims the god of Islam TO BE the God of the Holy Bible [false god = true God].

quote:

ukfan: Paul did not agree with your assesment in Acts. How do you rectify that portion of scripture with your belief?


I completely disagree with your interpretation of Acts. It's very clear that Paul was not proclaiming a pagan god to be God. Instead, he explained the God of the Holy Bible to them because they did not know Him. Very simple stuff. See explanation above.

Since God reveals only the truth, He will not be found in the false. He is not Buddha, Allah, or Vishnu, and neither has He revealed Himself through those gods to any group. He has revealed Himself in full through scripture. What you and the RCC are calling 'limited truth' is actually false revelation, and false revelation is not the work of God.

God bless.


Amen to that! Yes I agree with you. The people in Athens were very religious and had an altar to an unknown god. Paul filled their lack of knowledge with the knowledge of the Truth. He did not praise them for worshipping their idols.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



JesKlu -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (12/18/2007 1:04:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: milesjesu

lw9,

Where would you classify the God of the Jews? Can they be saved?

Is their understanding of God the same as Christians? Is their God "the Lord Jesus Christ?"

Peace,

MilesJesu


I know I'm not lw9, but I will answer your question. Yes they worship the same God, but in vain. As it says in Scripture:

Matthew 15:1-9

1 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." 3He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4For God commanded, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' 5But you say, 'If anyone tells his father or his mother, "What you would have gained from me is given to God," 6he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:

8 "'This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'" (ESV)

But they can only be saved if they confess faith in Christ as their Lord and Savior. Modern Judaism is not the Judaism that God started.

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica



Papa-san -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (12/18/2007 6:43:09 PM)

Hey... the Muslims call upon Mary! They're a shoe-in!



TheCatholicCrusader -> RE: Catholic Documents Examined (7/25/2008 4:45:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Papa-san

Hey... the Muslims call upon Mary! They're a shoe-in!


Question: If a little Muslim boy, say 5 years old, dies in a dusty village and never heard the Gospel, will God damn the poor shmuck to hell for something that was beyond the kids control? No, God will not do that.

Thus the Church rightlky teaches: "...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation." Lumen gentium 16; cf. Denzinger-Schonmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum, definitionum et declarationum de rebus fidei et morum 3866-3872

.
.l



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