|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 8:52:11 AM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I noticed that you capitalized "Word". Is that your way of refering to the written word, or are you refering to something else.
Both the written word and the voice of the Holy Spirit. It's a sign of respect. I'm not interested in going down this bunny trail.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, how does this Word help to discern the Spirit?
When a person is confronted with the various situations and circumstances of life, we weigh the responses we feel compelled to pursue with what we know from the scriptures. That helps us to confirm which impulses are in accordance with the Spirit and which ones are not. Over time, this training grows us up into the full stature of Christ's character.
"13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." (Heb. 5:13-14)
"21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (Ephesians 4:21-24)
The more we learn about and walk in the new nature, the better we get at it. The character of Christ is revealed in the scriptures and confirmed to us in the Holy Spirit.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 10:57:57 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
LBolt are you telling me that on the judgment seat of Christ that you will be able and say that I did all of this and open the door for me. Sounds to me and I believe you and Bluethread have a I salvation message. If that would be the case who has the right to boosting in their good deeds, because our sins are as filthy rags in God eye site.
Spong nor I have written that the ten went away. You want to add a bunch of meals and festivals. You go to the latter part of Isa. 58. But you skip the first part. You keep bring up about oral laws which the rabbis would have. By the way your laws would be different by what rabbi you was following. Have you guys forgot what Jesus said" whatever you bind in here on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loosen here on earth will be loosen in heaven". Has to do with rules, LAW. You understand that you can keep all the rituals laws you want to. But doesn't mean you have a better inside connection with God than anyone else. For if you have them thoughts you are subject to being very prideful of your accomplishments.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 5:20:30 PM
|
|
|
LBolt
Posts: 961
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
|
God bless you all, have at it...I bow out gracefully and we can just agree to disagree.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 2:02:51 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I noticed that you capitalized "Word". Is that your way of refering to the written word, or are you refering to something else.
Both the written word and the voice of the Holy Spirit. It's a sign of respect. I'm not interested in going down this bunny trail.
I am not looking to chase rabbits either, but I'd rather deal with them now than have you pull them out of your hat later. So,are you saying the written word and "the voice of the Holy Spirit" are the same thing?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, how does this Word help to discern the Spirit?
When a person is confronted with the various situations and circumstances of life, we weigh the responses we feel compelled to pursue with what we know from the scriptures. That helps us to confirm which impulses are in accordance with the Spirit and which ones are not. Over time, this training grows us up into the full stature of Christ's character.
This seems to be more about discerning our spirits more than it is about discerning The Spirit.
quote:
"13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil." (Heb. 5:13-14)
"21Surely you heard of him and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. (Ephesians 4:21-24)
The more we learn about and walk in the new nature, the better we get at it. The character of Christ is revealed in the scriptures and confirmed to us in the Holy Spirit.
As far as I can tell this is not inconsistant with a Torah observant lifestyle. The Scriptures you quote are in line with Torah, however, your comment is more about confirming Scripture by the Spirit. What I was asking is how does one confirm The Spirit? How do we know that what we think is The Spirit of Adonai is not some other spirit instead.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 3:26:44 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
LBolt are you telling me that on the judgment seat of Christ that you will be able and say that I did all of this and open the door for me. Sounds to me and I believe you and Bluethread have a I salvation message. If that would be the case who has the right to boosting in their good deeds, because our sins are as filthy rags in God eye site.
Spong nor I have written that the ten went away. You want to add a bunch of meals and festivals. You go to the latter part of Isa. 58. But you skip the first part. You keep bring up about oral laws which the rabbis would have. By the way your laws would be different by what rabbi you was following. Have you guys forgot what Jesus said" whatever you bind in here on earth will be bound in heaven. Whatever you loosen here on earth will be loosen in heaven". Has to do with rules, LAW. You understand that you can keep all the rituals laws you want to. But doesn't mean you have a better inside connection with God than anyone else. For if you have them thoughts you are subject to being very prideful of your accomplishments.
I saw my name taken in vain. (Ga 6:11) See what large letters I use as I write to you with my own hand! Let's be serious now.
I am not saying that I will be judged any different from anyone else. First the Accuser will point to my failure to live up to Adonai's standard as a justification for his pardon. Then, Yeshua will stand to say that he has paid the penalty and, hopefully, based on my exercising the faith He has given me, he includes me among those who are not subject to the penalty for the sin of rebellion.
Now, I am not sure which of the two passages you are refering to, so I will respond to both. In Mt 16:19, Peter has just acknowledged that Yeshua is Ha Meshiach(The Messiah) and the Son of Adonai. I presume that you hold that this statement and not Peter is the rock on which Yeshua will build His community. Therefore, it is the understanding of this statement that binds or looses individuals from the eternal consequences of sin. In context, Yeshua is saying one should be careful with whom one shares this understanding, because it is what sets people free from the eternal consequences of sin. This is why we need to be careful about earthly consequences. If people believe that they can avoid them here on earth, they will believe that they can avoid them in heaven.
This is what Yeshua is showing us in the second passage (Mt 18:18). Here, He is telling us of the procedures one is to follow before cutting someone
off from his people. This second passage has nothing to do with having an "inside connection with God", but is an interpretation of Torah for daily living. It is the people of Adonai who will be in heaven, so it also should be the people of Adonai who are in Yeshua's community. Paul further clarifies this by telling us the intent of the commandment regarding cutting someone off from their people, beginning with Gal 5:26 "Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ. 3 If anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 Each one should test his own actions. Then he can take pride in himself, without comparing himself to somebody else, 5 for each one should carry his own load."
This is a combination of the commandment to cut the rebellious one off from his people with the "second greatest commandment" in context. Lev 19:17 "'Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. 18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord."
So, we see in this example, what I and others are trying to convey. It is not my intent, or that of others I presume, to make a judgement regarding anyones eternity. However, we are told in "the second great commandment" that we are to hold people accountable for their actions for their sake and our own. Yeshua then clarifies this by giving us a procedure that provides due process and Paul repeats this procedure giving us the true intent of the commandment. There is no invalidating of Ha Torah, but a contenuity of teaching from rabbi to student, Adonai to Yeshua, Yeshua to Paul, and Paul to us. As Paul tells us, (1 Cor. 11:1)"try to imitate me, even as I myself try to imitate the Messiah." In conclusion, yes everyones interpretation of the Scriptures is effected by the rabbi(professor) they follow. I follow Rabbi Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Professor Jesus, The Christ). Which rabbi(professor) do you follow?
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/15/2008 3:34:24 AM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 9:50:39 AM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
When you think of a rabbi does. Think on the supreme court of USA. Who's job is to interpet the constitution. The rabbis do the samething yet in a gmethod. That's why you would read Yeshua saying; "You have heard it this way but I say.....". He was putting a twist on the law which was recorded.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 10:28:42 AM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1794
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
from BlueThread post 2969 in the One Stop Sabbath thread
Sorry, it took me so long to get back to your comments.
quote:
How do you know this? You seem to know a lot about my life. Are you stalking me? If you are, you would see that those in my community talk about the proper keeping of Shabbat often as we do with all of the Scriptures.
Deduction my dear Watson  I know this because you are on the internet. Because you are on the internet you are not in prison. Since you are not in prison you have not stoned anyone nor have you participated in implementing the death penalty for Sabbath breakers. Since you are not participating in implementing Sabbath breakers, you cannot possibly be holding them accountable as the Torah demands. We have been through this before.
quote:
You might be misunderstanding what I mean by community. I do not consider the pagan homosexual with which I used to work, or the "pragmatic" druggie with which I work now are part of my community. If people like these had the desire to study Torah and keep the Sabbath, I would be happy to include them, if they were to abstain from certain clearly offensive acts as we were directed by the Jerusalem council.
Remember the discussion we had earlier about Romans 14's command not to judge people with regard to considering one day above another? Here are your alternatives with regard to the treatment of Christians who do not agree with your position on Sabbath days.
1) Any Christian can enter your community and continue to work any day of the week they please. In that case you are obligated to institute the Torah death penalty, which is just as much a part of the Torah as any of the other laws.
2) You reject them from your community in which case you ARE judging them with regard to his diet and Sabbath keeping. In that situation you can avoid instituting the death penalty. But that violates Romans 14. You have rejected them.
quote:
quote:
1) Literal circumcision was a commandment under the law. It is not required now.
As a means of salvation or for discussion of Torah no, but Paul shows us that these were not required for such activities before. The purpose of circumcision is for identification purposes. If one does not wish to be identified with Adonai's people then he need not be circumcised.
They were not required at all! Exactly where in the NT do you find any verse suggesting that circumcision was still required except for the purposes of salvation?? Keep in mind that I know that circumcision is not required for salvation. My question is--where are we required to circumcise so long as it is not linked to salvation?
quote:
As you pointed out there is no temple. So this is a matter of not being able to, not a removal of the admonition should the opportunity arise.
Samuel offered animal sacrifices and it was not in the Temple (1 Sam. 16:1-5). So did David (2 Samuel 24:18 ff) and so did Abraham. During the time of all three, there was no temple but during the time of David and Samuel there was a tent/tabernacle.quote:
quote:
4) We are not required to follow the Law's dietary requirements. All foods are clean, no foods are unclean. Romans 14.
However, as you have stated it all foods are clean and how do we know what is food. Is anything I put in my mouth food, ie broken glass, dog poo,or even another human being? Of course not. Adonai tells us what food is. But again, this thread is not about food.
Romans 14 is about foods and regarding holy days.
quote:
quote:
You've got to be kidding when you say that we are NOT in a radically different Covenant system.
So, the covenant is the same, even if parts of what you call the "system" can not be done at this time.
This has been going on for some 2,000 years. How long will it take you to realize that we are in a different covenant? The entire period of time from Moses to the time of the apostles covered less time than that. At the time of the writing of Hebrews, the author said that the Old Covenant was even then passing away. It even says "about to" (NET Bible) and "ready to" (NASV, KJV). How long has this been going on? For 2,000 years? Are you serious?
quote:
...the covenant is the same, even if parts of what you call the "system" can not be done at this time. Do you have a parapet on your roof? (Duet 22:8) Do the women in your church wear slacks? (Duet. 22:5)
quote:
For salvation, no I don't have to keep Shabbat for that purpose. If, I wish to acknowledge Adonai as the authority in my life and receive the blessing of not being cut off from His peculiar people, I obey His commandment.
There is no observing the Sabbath for two separate purposes except for matters of conscience, according to Romans 14. If it is not salvific ("of" or "for" salvation), then it is not obligated AT ALL. There is no separate category by which are are still obligated to observe the Sabbath so long as it is not salvific. That is an invention on your part.
quote:
I get this from the fact that we gentiles are grafted into the people of Adonai and not the other way around. Yes, there are two groups. However, in the context of Romans 14 it does not say which sacred days he is refering to. But, even if he is talking about Shabbat, each man should be convinced in his own mind.
So, I guess I am not speculating that Paul is talking about two groups.
Aren't the feast days a part of the Law also? Assuming that Paul is allowing people to forgo the feast days, that is one part of the law that is no longer obligated. Are feast days obligated by God or not? Are they a matter of conscience or not? Remember, this was written at a time when the Temple was still in existance.
Whether Paul is talking about feast days or weekly Sabbath days, it is optional and not obligatory according to one's conscience. One who does not see fit to observe those days according to his conscience is to be welcomed into the church without being rejected or judged. Isn't that what Paul is saying.
quote:
It is also possible that Gentiles did not want to observe Shabbat or know what Ha Torah says. But since Paul doesn't mention it, why complicate the discussion by attempting to add to the text?? Also, since Ha Torah was the only Scripture at the time, and it is what Paul quotes, it makes sence that Yeshua's followers would want access to it.
Let's see. The Jews observe the Sabbath in their synagogues. The Gentiles go there to hear the word of God--on the Sabbath--where Paul is preaching. And Gentiles don't know that Jews observe the Sabbath? How incredible!!!
There is no mention that Gentiles aren't observing the Sabbath but Jews are. There are only two groups mentioned: those who observe the Sabbath and those who don't. We are told nothing about their ethnic identity or their religious background, as if it makes any difference.quote:
quote:
That's not what Paul says. You say you try to be in context. Now, I expect you to put your money where your mouth is. Please don't cloud the discussion by interjecting interpretations completely absent from the text.
But you just did when you presumed that the verse above was talking about gentiles who did not want to keep Shabbat.
I have no clue as to what self-contradiction you are alleging that I am making. To summarize how we arrived to this portion of the discussion.
Paul says in 1 Cor. 9:20 that he was not under the law. On the other hand he is saying that he is not free from the law. His point is that he is not obligated to observe the Mosaic Law. But he is not being antinomian. He is not disregarding righteous behavior. There is no obligation to observe the Mosaic Law but he observes it anyway so as not to hinder his ministry to Jews who have not believed on Christ.
Not being "free from the law" means essentially that he is observes it for a different reason from the typical Jews.
quote:
It appears to me that he is saying that he is not under the law as most would understand it, as interpreted by the various rabbis that saw it as a means of salvation. It is interesting that there are some who still teach that keeping Shabbat was necessary for salvation in Yeshua's time. Paul clearly does not hold to this belief as he points out in the faith chapters.
OK, you are almost right. He is not differentiating between himself as Torah observant apart from the salvational reason and others who are Torah observant for salvational reasons.
His reasons are ministry related. That's what the text says. That was his reason. He mentions no other reason. To suggest that he still believed himself to be still obligated apart from reasons of salvation suggest that he taught and believed in something he never taught anywhere in the NT! That is eiegesis. Please show me a scripture that says he still believe himself to be obligated to be Torah observant apart from salvational reasons and apart from ministry reasons.
quote:
quote:
Paul spoke of Gentiles who "have not the Law," isn't he using the word law in another sense? (Romans 2:14).
Thank you for the accurate reference. However, had you quoted it, you might have noticed that these gentiles he speaks of keep the requirements, which if you will permit for the purpose of staying on topic, includes Shabbat.
Romans 2:14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
So they keep the entire Torah, including the Sabbath and the feast days, circumcision and everything else--all of that without having any written scriptures designating these things? Are you serious? Look at verse 26 of the same chapter. Paul speaks of uncircumcised Gentiles obeying the righteousness of the law. Since circumcision was a requirement of the law, how could Paul be talking about literal Torah observant Gentiles keeping the Law?
If the Gentile was missing the command to be circumcised, then he is no longer keeping the entire Torah. He could not be rightly called Torah observant, could he?
That's because you are not articulating Paul's point. Paul's point is that the righteousness of the law is not fulfilled by literal Torah observance. It is fulfilled when the sinner realizes that he is in need of repentance before God and realizes his guilt. The Gentile "keeps Torah" by acknowledging a higher requirement of righteousness apart from Torah observance.
Rom. 3:21 But now apart frm the law the righteousness of God...has been disclosed - 3:22 namely the righteousness of God through...Christ for all who believe....
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/15/2008 10:37:28 AM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 10:34:48 AM
|
|
|
GrahamCracker
Posts: 1794
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
|
Continued from BlueThread post 2969 in the One Stop Sabbath thread
quote:
quote:
To reiterate. The Sabbath is not commanded anywhere but in a Law context. Homosexuality and a number of sexual sins are condemned many places in the Bible.
If they are condemned isn't that a law context. Also, as I have listed before, Shabbat is mentioned by example in the Scripture as are the sexual sins.
No, not always. Homosexuality is seen as condemned by God when He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Joseph called possible adultery with Potipher's wife "evil." So no, not all sexual sins were in the context of the Torah.
quote:
quote:
Suppose (God forbid) we were to divorce. What obligation would she have over my memory of our anniversary? So long as we are married, I had better not forget it! If I were under the Mosaic Law, then I had better not omit the obligation for observing the Sabbath. But that has changed.
Are you saying that Adonai divorced us and therefore we have no obligation to Him?
I was trying to think of something analogous to Paul's point in Romans chapter 7. As long as I remain married, I have to remember our anniversary and her birthday (which is today, BTW). If we were to divorce or if she were to die, there is no obligation to remember either, except for nostalgic or sentimental reasons.
As long as I am under the the jurisdiction of the Law (Torah) then I would be obligated to observe the Sabbath as you suggest. But, Paul says in Romans 7:6 that I am "released" from the Torah (NET Bible). That's because I am "dead" to the Torah. I am under the obligation to observe it if I am under its jurisdiction. Since I am no longer under its jurisdiction, I am not obligated to observe it. I am not "bound to the Law." Paul never says "released from the law insofar as salvation is concerned." I am not bound to it at all. Chapter 8 (eight) opens by saying that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. That means no law curses.
quote:
Yes, we are not bound to the Law. We never really have been.
How could someone be released from something that they were never bound to in the first place?
quote:
But let's not stop there. Let's keep going.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."
One of the ways we know what Adonai requires is by Ha Torah. To continue the analogy, if ones were to mark down his anniversary date and acknowledge it exactly as he had been told to, he might well be in trouble for not getting the right color flowers or the wrong kind of candy. In the same way those who keep Shabbat without guidance from Adonai's Spirit are not keeping Shabbat. So, it is not the slavish keeping of the written Torah that Adonai wants, but Ha Torah written on our hearts. However, to return to the analogy, Adonai help the man who forgets the list.
Another invention of yours. We are either obligated to observe it or not. There is no third alternative whereby we are obligated to observe it literally through the Holy Spirit.
Paul's point is whether or not we are bound to the law or not bound to the law. His point was never that we are bound to God and then obligated to observe the Torah.
quote:
quote:
I am not under the Law.
If by that you mean you do not have to do what's in the written Torah because, you "do by nature things required by the law". Then,you are truly blessed.
I have the righteousness of Christ apart from Torah observance, including righteousness apart from any obligation or practice to observe the Saturday Sabbath. God does not condemn me nor does He demand that I do it.
quote:
quote:
I did not agree that "Paul continues to keep Shabbat..." Scripture does not say that he continued to keep it.
I believe he did and I gave biblical examples. You say he was just evangelizing and others were just doing it out of habit. The Scriptures do not say this either. So, on this point we have an impass.
Uh. Yes they do. Paul says that he does that in order to evangelize.
"What then is my reward? That when I preach the gospel I may offer the gospel free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights in the gospel.
For since I am free from all I can make myself a slave to all, in order to gain even more people. To the Jews, I became like a Jew to gain the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law..." (Romans 9:18-20)
Apart from any bogging down of the discussion, do you agree that whatever he is doing, his motive is evangelism? Whatever could he be talking about if not his motives for evangelism?
quote:
How long are we going to play this game of biblical ping pong. Let me handle both sides of the table at the same time.
As long as you keep coming up with different contradictions of the passage. It is your convoluted logic that is a game. I am trying to show you how logically, there is really no other alternative but that Paul is talking about dietary laws and Sabbath days.
quote:
As I said above, in the context of Romans 14 it does not say which sacred days he is refering to. But, even if he is talking about Shabbat, each man should be convinced in his own mind. We are to give people time to learn.
"Giving people time to learn" is a complete invention of yours! You made that up. The text no where even suggests that.
If Paul meant "feast days," he would likely use the words feast days. In Col. 2:16, he mentions feast days in his list along with the word Sabbath.
Therefore, do not let anyone judge you with respect to food or drink, or in the matter of a feast, new moon, or Sabbath days... Here he is using nearly identical language except that he calls Saturdays "Sabbath days" and the seasonal feasts as feasts. No great mystery there. In Colossians, there is absolutely no excuse for your misinterpretation. Here its in black and white. Same subject matter, only it is a briefer discussion.
quote:
In Col. 2:16, Paul is talking about salvation and therefore, let no one make a judgement regarding your salvation based on how you keep Shabbat.
Please don't make these things up. This is written to a church, already saved people. Paul never says, "don't do things for salvation." He says we don't have to do it at all.
Concerning Hebrews 3 and the Sabbath rest you wrote:
quote:
We see there is a blessing of rest. However, those who are disobedient do not recieve that rest even if they do "keep" Shabbat, since they prove they do not keep it properly, by faith.
I see you have been following some of the discussion with LBolt. He is not obligating them to keep the Saturday Sabbath. The author of Hebrews is comparing Jews in the time of the apostles to the Jews in the time of Moses. As the Old Covenant was being initiated, Israel was reluctant to enter the law and to keep the OT law as they were obligated to do so. They rebelled.
However, this time, the author of Hebrews is discussing the New Covenant and the reluctance of some to enter the New Covenant era that was even then being initiated. The OT Sabbath was a type. I coined a word "prophetic metaphor" in another thread. The Sabbath of Genesis and the Psalmist's mention of it was prophetic with regard to the New Covenant in Christ. It was symbolic in that the literal Sabbath was a symbol of salvation in Christ.
The rest that remained for the people of God referred to Jews (who were the people of God), who had not yet believed in Christ or who were only half convinced. Take your pick.
quote:
That which is without faith is sin.
You reference two separate contexts. But let's see if we can do something with this. You previously said that it would do no good if someone kept the Sabbath but did not understand it. That suggests that he is not obligated to do so, right? No one is to condemn him. God does not obligate him to keep it--since he doesn't understand it. That's Paul's command. How long is this to continue? Forever? Is his lack of Sabbath observance allowed for the rest of his life or until God judges him for it? Where does it say God will judge him if he ultimately does not get with the program? Why would God judge someone for something that God permits the person to do without being judged?
Since you would like to insist that "regarding days" in Romans 14 actually means feast days, then please answer the same questions above about feast days. Surely you don't think that making it feast days is any kind of answer do you? Are you saying that no one has to keep the feast days if they don't want to, even though they are commanded in the OT Law?
quote:
The lack of rest is a curse.
Where did you get that? Another invention?
quote:
This is a NT references, but without the Tanach it is meaningless since everything in the passage comes from the Tanach. So, will you accept quotes from the Tanach?
I will take the quotes from the Tanach into consideration. The English Bible is only a translation. I seriously doubt that it differs significantly from the Tanach. I currently use the NET Bible, which I consider one of the better English translations. It so happens that the NET Bible has more translation notes in it than it does text. It provides numerous alternative readings from the LXX as well as the Latin Vulgate in some places.
quote:
As you acknowledged before in your attempt to combine the two discussions, talking about keeping Shabbat when one believes Ha Torah has passed away is foolishness.
Anyone who believes that Christians are obligated to keep the Sabbath must do so on the basis of the OT Law, since that is the only place where we are commanded to keep it. Contextually, the Law was still in force during the life time of Christ. So I consider all observance of the Sabbath, as well as the remainder of the Law, the obligation of Christ believers at that time. The Law never passed out away until later.
I, myself, have no problem with discussing the obligation to observe the Law in the Sabbath keeping thread. It is Crosswalk that does. In order to stay in compliance with CW rules, we should discuss it in the Keep the Law thread. They told me it was permissible to discuss both there. They just don't want me to argue about keeping the Law in the Sabbath thread.
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 8/15/2008 3:05:45 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 3:20:21 PM
|
|
|
Odeliya
Posts: 2408
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
That is why I say, a man can not be alive unless he has a measure of Adonai's Spirit working in him. When we do not live as Adonai wishes, we greave His Spirit and we receive the curses associated with that. Also, as we do as he wishes He blesses us. The difference between the saved and the unsaved is that we who are saved can "lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and . . . run with patience the race that is set before us . . .". Those who are not saved, if they wish to live, are weighed down by the knowledge that they are indeed dying and can not please Adonai no matter how hard they try.
Appreciate the answer and no, i dont share that view.
There way too much in NT about new birth, new creation, to agree that (to say it without pretty wording, but in essense) Saved just got more Spirit and live less sinful life.
But i'll gladly agree to disagree and no response needed. If that is not important to your and Sponge's debate on the Law keeping then no problem, we can set it aside.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 4:13:04 PM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So,are you saying the written word and "the voice of the Holy Spirit" are the same thing?
No. But they can be at times.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, how does this Word help to discern the Spirit?
When a person is confronted with the various situations and circumstances of life, we weigh the responses we feel compelled to pursue with what we know from the scriptures. That helps us to confirm which impulses are in accordance with the Spirit and which ones are not. Over time, this training grows us up into the full stature of Christ's character.
This seems to be more about discerning our spirits more than it is about discerning The Spirit.
It's both. Galatians 5 teaches us about the things that come from our flesh, and about the things that come from the Spirit. For example, if you are tempted to entertain feelings of envy and walk in behaviors consistent with that impulse, then you are hearing the voice of the flesh, not the Spirit. But, on the other hand, if you feel compelled to rejoice with someone who you might otherwise want to envy, you know that is a good and righteous thing and you can run with it knowing that is exactly in the will of God for you to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...What I was asking is how does one confirm The Spirit? How do we know that what we think is The Spirit of Adonai is not some other spirit instead.
I thought I made it clear that scripture confirms the activity of the Spirit within us, either in direct, hard and fast guidance, or through general principles.
For example if someone poked me in the eye because they were jealous of me, I know from scripture that I should not take revenge and poke their eye out. Actually in that case I've got two things working in me. 1) the word of God gives me clear guidance in regard to revenge and paying people back for their wrongs, and 2) I've got the peace of God by the Holy Spirit residing in my heart reminding me of the tremendous pardon I myself have received in regard to my own offenses.
The word confirms the Spirit, the Spirit confirms the word. Every matter of daily life can be settled by the testimony of two or three, in the same way that the matter of the truth that Jesus is the Christ was settled in my heart through the word and Spirit speaking in agreement and confirming the truth (1 John 5). The word is the Spirit when the Spirit is speaking the word. Their are many unbelievers who only know about the word. For them the word is not the Spirit at all.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 7:54:24 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So,are you saying the written word and "the voice of the Holy Spirit" are the same thing?
No. But they can be at times.
So,your answers is no and yes. That clears things up.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This seems to be more about discerning our spirits more than it is about discerning The Spirit.
It's both. Galatians 5 teaches us about the things that come from our flesh, and about the things that come from the Spirit. For example, if you are tempted to entertain feelings of envy and walk in behaviors consistent with that impulse, then you are hearing the voice of the flesh, not the Spirit. But, on the other hand, if you feel compelled to rejoice with someone who you might otherwise want to envy, you know that is a good and righteous thing and you can run with it knowing that is exactly in the will of God for you to do.
This is an interpretation of the "tenth" commandment. So, we use Ha Torah to discern the Spirit.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...What I was asking is how does one confirm The Spirit? How do we know that what we think is The Spirit of Adonai is not some other spirit instead.
I thought I made it clear that scripture confirms the activity of the Spirit within us, either in direct, hard and fast guidance, or through general principles.
For example if someone poked me in the eye because they were jealous of me, I know from scripture that I should not take revenge and poke their eye out. Actually in that case I've got two things working in me. 1) the word of God gives me clear guidance in regard to revenge and paying people back for their wrongs, and 2) I've got the peace of God by the Holy Spirit residing in my heart reminding me of the tremendous pardon I myself have received in regard to my own offenses.
Though you did not give a verse for this one, I presume you are refering to Yeshua's clarification of (Lev 24:17-22). This has been interpreted by many rabbis to be the maximum one should do not the minimum. Yeshua tells us, (Mt 5:38) "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." Though many "christian" theologians have taken different views on what this actually means, Yeshua confirms this clarification by expounding on Lev 19:18 "'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." in saying, (Mt 5:43-34) "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you . . . " So, we see Yeshua using two seemingly controdictary commands to discern what the Spirit of Adonai is saying. This is not an example of rejecting of Ha Torah, but of the proper way to understand what Ruach Ha Adonai(The Spirit of Adonai) meant.
quote:
The word confirms the Spirit, the Spirit confirms the word. Every matter of daily life can be settled by the testimony of two or three, in the same way that the matter of the truth that Jesus is the Christ was settled in my heart through the word and Spirit speaking in agreement and confirming the truth (1 John 5). The word is the Spirit when the Spirit is speaking the word. Their are many unbelievers who only know about the word. For them the word is not the Spirit at all.
Yes, I agree. Also, some reject Ha Torah(The Word) because it doesn't fit there image of the spirit. For them what they consider to be the word is not the Spirit at all.
quote:
Thank God for the New Covenant.
Yes, B'ruch Ha Shem(blessed is the name), Yeshua have renewed the covenant to what it was always intended to be, before it was corrupted by false prophets, a schoolmaster who points us to Him. May He continue keep it safe from them.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 9:10:07 AM
|
|
|
SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...So,are you saying the written word and "the voice of the Holy Spirit" are the same thing?
No. But they can be at times.
So,your answers is no and yes. That clears things up.
Sorry, but there is no hard and fast 'rule' available to answer this for you. Sometimes it's yes, sometimes it's no. The word of God is not always inhabited by his Spirit. We know this clearly from the example of 'eye for eye'. God no longer requires a literal poking out of an eye as payment for an eye as a matter of law. He's not speaking those words anymore. There are many other words that God is no longer speaking.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
This seems to be more about discerning our spirits more than it is about discerning The Spirit.
It's both. Galatians 5 teaches us about the things that come from our flesh, and about the things that come from the Spirit. For example, if you are tempted to entertain feelings of envy and walk in behaviors consistent with that impulse, then you are hearing the voice of the flesh, not the Spirit. But, on the other hand, if you feel compelled to rejoice with someone who you might otherwise want to envy, you know that is a good and righteous thing and you can run with it knowing that is exactly in the will of God for you to do.
This is an interpretation of the "tenth" commandment. So, we use Ha Torah to discern the Spirit.
Yes, sometimes. Nobody is saying otherwise. But we wouldn't use Torah to discern an urge to poke someone's eye out. We have higher revelation to govern the discernment of what to do with that urge. Although you are perfectly entitled to do that according to the law.
You can take this discussion in whatever direction you want. But the point right now is Torah is not the definitive guide for discerning the Spirit. Many words of Torah are no longer inhabited by the Spirit of God. Meaning he's not speaking them anymore.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 10:10:15 AM
|
|
|
Bluethread
Posts: 1543
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Deduction my dear Watson I know this because you are on the internet. Because you are on the internet you are not in prison. Since you are not in prison you have not stoned anyone nor have you participated in implementing the death penalty for Sabbath breakers. Since you are not participating in implementing Sabbath breakers, you cannot possibly be holding them accountable as the Torah demands. We have been through this before.
You have missed one vital bit of evidence my dear Holmes. In your deduction of the proper implimentation of the death penalty, you have left out the bibilical method of due process, which Yeshua clarifies by saying (Mt 18:15-17) "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector." So, we see social judgement is the responsibility of the community and eternel judgement is the right of Adonai.
quote:
quote:
You might be misunderstanding what I mean by community. I do not consider the pagan homosexual with which I used to work, or the "pragmatic" druggie with which I work now are part of my community. If people like these had the desire to study Torah and keep the Sabbath, I would be happy to include them, if they were to abstain from certain clearly offensive acts as we were directed by the Jerusalem council.
Remember the discussion we had earlier about Romans 14's command not to judge people with regard to considering one day above another? Here are your alternatives with regard to the treatment of Christians who do not agree with your position on Sabbath days.
1) Any Christian can enter your community and continue to work any day of the week they please. In that case you are obligated to institute the Torah death penalty, which is just as much a part of the Torah as any of the other laws.
2) You reject them from your community in which case you ARE judging them with regard to his diet and Sabbath keeping. In that situation you can avoid instituting the death penalty. But that violates Romans 14. You have rejected them.
As I quoted Yeshua before, there is a third alternative, bring it before the community, if the community judges wrongly, them Adonai will judge the community. Either way, we can then observe Lev19:18 "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord." Someone who does not observe Shabbat would not be meeting with my community on Shabbat anyway.
quote:
They were not required at all! Exactly where in the NT do you find any verse suggesting that circumcision was still required except for the purposes of salvation?? Keep in mind that I know that circumcision is not required for salvation. My question is--where are we required to circumcise so long as it is not linked to salvation?
As I pointed out in other post, nothing is "required" as you seem to define it, not even Paul's admonitions. Everything a follower of Yeshua does is in response to Ruach Ha Chedosh(The Holy Spirit) and we know He is Ruach Ha Chedosh because He is in agreement with Ha Torah(The Word) become flesh Yeshua Ha Meshiach. WWJD
quote:
quote:
As you pointed out there is no temple. So this is a matter of not being able to, not a removal of the admonition should the opportunity arise.
Samuel offered animal sacrifices and it was not in the Temple (1 Sam. 16:1-5). So did David (2 Samuel 24:18 ff) and so did Abraham. During the time of all three, there was no temple but during the time of David and Samuel there was a tent/tabernacle.
Samuel arrived in Bethlehem and invited Jesse to come with him to sacrifice, presumably in the tabernacle. Do you have any other verse that states to the contrary?
David's sacrifice was at the direct command of Adonai through His prophet. Is there a prophet of Adonai, who himself is willing to face stoning, who has recieved word from Adonai that I am to make a sacrifice anywhere but the temple in Jerusalem? Tell me, so that I may examine him to see if he is indeed a prophet of Adonai.
quote:
quote:
However, as you have stated it all foods are clean and how do we know what is food. Is anything I put in my mouth food, ie broken glass, dog poo,or even another human being? Of course not. Adonai tells us what food is. But again, this thread is not about food.
Romans 14 is about foods and regarding holy days.
You did not answer the question, how do we know what is food? Is anything I put in my mouth food, ie broken glass, dog poo,or even another human being?
quote:
This has been going on for some 2,000 years. How long will it take you to realize that we are in a different covenant? The entire period of time from Moses to the time of the apostles covered less time than that. At the time of the writing of Hebrews, the author said that the Old Covenant was even then passing away. It even says "about to" (NET Bible) and "ready to" (NASV, KJV). How long has this been going on? For 2,000 years? Are you serious?
Yes, people have been misintepreting Adonai for much more than 2000 yrs. As we see in the time of the judges, (Judges 17:6) In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit. History has indeed repeated itself, as recorded in the Decameron, the records of the inquisisions and the holocaust, just to name a few examples.
quote:
quote:
...the covenant is the same, even if parts of what you call the "system" can not be done at this time.
Do you have a parapet on your roof? (Duet 22:8) Do the women in your church wear slacks? (Duet. 22:5)
Deuteronomy 22:8 When you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof. The purpose of the command is clearly stated. I had a balcony on my roof, I would put a fence around it.
Deuteronomy 22:5 A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.
Who has determined that slacks are men's clothing, this is your interpretation.
Must we continue with this endless proof texting. If you were following the dictates of Lev. 18 and were lovingly correcting my behavior, this might make some sence. But, since you have clearly stated that you think these things are not applicable, this is nothing more than an inquisision.
quote:
There is no observing the Sabbath for two separate purposes except for matters of conscience, according to Romans 14. If it is not salvific ("of" or "for" salvation), then it is not obligated AT ALL. There is no separate category by which are are still obligated to observe the Sabbath so long as it is not salvific. That is an invention on your part.
As I pointed out before, if I were to accept your very narrow interpretation of "obligated", I would say nothing is obligatory, not even Paul's admonitions. As I hope you have noticed, Paul states several things that the believer is to do and to refrain from. Since, salvation is by grace through faith none of these things is, as you say, salvific. Therefore, by your definition none of them is obligitory.
quote:
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
