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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 10:36:25 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1578
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
"Lord I believe help my unbelief"
Clearly Belief is not something that comes natural to everyone. Some people need to labor over it. For those who experience the "Dark Night of the Soul" it is a labor to keep up belief, it would be much easier to scrap the whole thing for these people
The man who asked Jesus to "help my unbelief" already believed. Those who experience the "Dark Night of the Soul" already believe also. Those of us who genuinely believe have to deal with a lack of assurance at times. We labor in sanctification, not in faith in our initial saving faith in Him whom we see as irresistible. We would not continue in the fight of faith if we did not believe already.
The faith that justifies is not a faith that can be worked up or initiated by the person who believes. In other words, you cannot work yourself up to believe that which you do not believe. Once we do believe we at times struggle with that belief.
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-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:20:59 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
But if someone refuses baptism, and it was a command of Jesus, I would seriously wonder about their faith.... If I believe in Jesus do I not want to do what He tells me to do?
In that sense, anyway, I do not see how anyone can say baptism is *not* a requirement.
Good point! Why would anybody disagree to get baptised while claiming to be saved? that would be really strange behaivor, indicative of not being in faith as of yet ....
Only in case a person cant do it due to circumstances/insufficient time, then i am sure, God takes then in without the water baptism.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:27:24 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
It's a shame that people put their experience above what Scripture teaches. I too walked an aisle, said the sinners prayer and believed that I was saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit at that moment because that's what I was told……
( cut post to save space) ……... I don't think there are four baptisms. If Scripture says that we are to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, then I believe that. If Scripture says that when we are baptized for the forgiveness of our sins that we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, then I believe that. In my life what Scripture actually says will always take precedence over what my personal experience says that it can't be saying or what it must say based on that experience.
If a personal spiritual experience can deceive us as you described then personal baptismal experience can deceive just as easily. Performing an act of water baptism is not going to miraculously turn a deceived "altar call answerer" into a saved Child of God. Agreed?
Believers don’t spontaneously materialize from that , sadly,what comes out of the water is a wet, deceived, happy and delighted over the whole event, still-on-the-way-to-Hell, eternally damned sinner. We all know how many unsaved, baptized people are walking around/attend churches. Matt 7 23 crew has baptized peeps in it, not a doubt!
So while it’s incredibly important to obey Gods ordinance, strictly speaking,One can be saved, not have time to be baptized and still go to Heaven.
Let me ask you - Thief on the Cross? Of if someone gets saved, minutes before death, minus water baptism, would you agree a person goes to heaven?Just Yes or No, please. And it it is Yes, then it is not a requirement. Not in a strict sense as in requirement to be born Again of Holy Spirit, without which noone enters heaven.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:27:43 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
But if someone refuses baptism, and it was a command of Jesus, I would seriously wonder about their faith.... If I believe in Jesus do I not want to do what He tells me to do?
In that sense, anyway, I do not see how anyone can say baptism is *not* a requirement.
Good point! Why would anybody disagree to get baptised while claiming to be saved? that would be really strange behaivor, indicative of not being in faith as of yet ....
Only in case a person cant do it due to circumstances/insufficient time, then i am sure, God takes then in without the water baptism.
Great Point the Early church had a term for this, it is called the Baptism of desire. Since the early church did not just baptize anyone but required a time for he catecumen (the candidate for baptism) to be Catecheised (learn the faith and know what they were doing before they were baptized). If someone died between the time of profession of faith and baptism they were considered to have come under the Baptisim of desire. THey desired baptism they just were not able--for whatever reason--to recieve it.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:34:28 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Why would anybody disagree to get baptised while claiming to be saved? that would be really strange behaivor, indicative of not being in faith as of yet ....
Who are you to judge someone's faith? It is not a matter of "disagreeing to get baptized" as if one is wilfully disobeying a command to be water baptized. It is simply that not all Christians believe we are commanded to be baptized in water. Water baptism is not salvific, so whether or not someone is baptized in water has no bearing on their faith or salvation.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:40:04 PM
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Odeliya
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Ok, sure, Wild.
I honestly didn’t know such people existed. I thought all think that wat. baptism is what Jesus wants us to do if we have means to.
But if you read my futher post, I hope I demonstrated sufficiently my postion that Water Bapt is not salvific at all!
LP, thanks for the note, yes, i hear of that.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:43:23 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11665
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WildByNature
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Why would anybody disagree to get baptised while claiming to be saved? that would be really strange behaivor, indicative of not being in faith as of yet ....
Who are you to judge someone's faith? It is not a matter of "disagreeing to get baptized" as if one is wilfully disobeying a command to be water baptized. It is simply that not all Christians believe we are commanded to be baptized in water. Water baptism is not salvific, so whether or not someone is baptized in water has no bearing on their faith or salvation.
"Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Is this not a command?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:43:36 PM
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rileykins
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A requirement for what? NOT for salvation! That's the issue. Those who teach that water baptism is a requirment for salvation today in this dispensation of grace or that it's through some water cermony performed by some priest, or minister that we receive the grace needed to be saved or any other such garbage are preaching a false gospel. By grace THROUGH faith. THROUGH faith. Does that verse not mean anything to anyone around here? I guess not!!
rileykins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:51:19 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
"Go ye, therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Is this not a command?
Where is the water? Is "teaching all nations" the act of immersing them in water, or immersing them in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:53:00 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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quote:
A requirement for what? NOT for salvation! That's the issue. Those who teach that water baptism is a requirment for salvation today in this dispensation of grace or that it's through some water cermony performed by some priest, or minister that we receive the grace needed to be saved or any other such garbage are preaching a false gospel. By grace THROUGH faith. THROUGH faith. Does that verse not mean anything to anyone around here? I guess not!!
Have you ever read John 3:5? Your insults add nothing to the discussion.
Otis
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 12:55:19 PM
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WildByNature
Posts: 430
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
Great Point the Early church had a term for this, it is called the Baptism of desire. Since the early church did not just baptize anyone but required a time for he catecumen (the candidate for baptism) to be Catecheised (learn the faith and know what they were doing before they were baptized). If someone died between the time of profession of faith and baptism they were considered to have come under the Baptisim of desire. THey desired baptism they just were not able--for whatever reason--to recieve it.
The term "baptism of deisre" is a term only used by the Catholic Church. The baptism of desire, in essence, is not a desire to be baptized in water, but a desire to convert to Catholicism.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 1:07:13 PM
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rileykins
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Have you ever heard of the dispensation of the grace of God? What is being insulted here is the gospel of the grace of God wherein men and women today are saved by grace THROUGH faith plus nothing, including water baptism!
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: ephs. 3
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; col.1:25
rileykins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 1:29:20 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 171
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But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24
Salvation is by grace through faith. The religionist doesn't like this gospel of grace because a salvation that is a GIFT from God, a GIFT that is received THROUGH faith and THROUGH faith alone, will put the business of religion out of business.
rileykins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 1:41:12 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11665
Joined: 4/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24
Salvation is by grace through faith. The religionist doesn't like this gospel of grace because a salvation that is a GIFT from God, a GIFT that is received THROUGH faith and THROUGH faith alone, will put the business of religion out of business.
rileykins
Was Paul baptised? Yes or no?
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 2:32:31 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
Joined: 2/9/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God. Acts 20:24
Salvation is by grace through faith. The religionist doesn't like this gospel of grace because a salvation that is a GIFT from God, a GIFT that is received THROUGH faith and THROUGH faith alone, will put the business of religion out of business.
rileykins
Forget about baptism, Paul circumcised Timothy! Why did he do this when Paul knew that Timothy was saved by Grace? Paul did it because God Commanded that the Jews be circumcised as a sign and symbol of their faith. It was not an option for the Jew to choose if he should undergo this process even through any good Jew will tell you that they are saved by God's grace alone. Paul is quite clear that Baptism is the new circumsision and MUST be done as part of the faith.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 2:59:57 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 171
Joined: 4/12/2005
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Yes he was, and? did that water ceremony have anything to do with his receiving eternal life? If it's through a water ceremony that we receive eternal life then Paul sure did change his mind later on about that didn't he! for by grace are saved through faith and that not of yourselves....
And if water baptism has any part whatsoever in one's being saved, today, in this dispensation of grace, then Paul was glad that he had only "saved" a few people! In fact he thanked God for it....
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;1Cor.1:14
If you want to get water baptised as a believer, as one who already is saved then go ahead! Do it any way you want to. In the name of Jesus, in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, get sprinkled, get dunked. I could care less about those kinds of arguments. But do not tell me that no one can be saved or is saved unless they are baptised because that's a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God that we are called to preach today, in this dispensation of grace.
rileykins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 3:12:58 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 171
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Hi Igpreacherman
The Jews always needed a sign. However, we are to walk by faith and not by sight. How about considering the only circumscision that counts today, namely the one made without hands. Just as Paul speaks of the one baptism and that one being a spiritual one, not one of water, but that one baptism that places us in Christ the moment we believe on Him, the only cirucmuscision that counts today is the one spoken of in Colossisians. That too is spiritual in nature...
In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
rileykins
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 3:17:39 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
When one says to "do something", that usually indicates "accomplishing something", right? How do you view the act of believing something to be accomplishing something? There is no effort in thinking, or believing, and nothing is "accomplished", from our perspective. From God's perspective, He takes "action" as a result of our belief.
You and I view thinking and believing differently. Does God "benefit" from what you think? No. Does God "benefit" from your acts of obedience in witnessing, helping others, etc? Yes. And those things are called good deeds/works. If they were required for salvation, our salvation would be earned by those works. But it's not. Believing cannot be thought of as a work or deed, since nothing is accomplished from simply thinking something.
So, now you're telling me that thinking and believing don't accomplish anything? I guess you're right. You and I do view thinking and believing differently. While I don't consider belief or thinking to be a work, I do think that it accomplishes something.
I've obviously not been as clear as I need to be. Sorry. My comments were in reference to Rom 4:4,5, which says,
Now to the one who works, his wage isnot reckoned as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but belives in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,". I've underlined the important words. Notice that "wages" result in "what is due". That means that the "work" was done for someone's benefit, resulting in "what is due".
Can you imagine anyone paying you for merely thinking something? Working for someone results in a wage due, but thinking (believing) doesn't result in a wage due. It is in that sense I made my comments. iow, when you "work" for someone, they benefit from your work, and owe you what is due. But believing doesn't result in a wage due, since it isn't a work.
quote:
Does God "benefit" from what you think? Maybe not, but neither does God "benefit" from people being baptized.
I disagree. He doesn't benefit from what you think, but He does benefit from your baptism, since it is an outward manifestation of your obedience to Him. Your testimony definitely benefits Him, and such testimony, or lifestyle does benefit Him. Further, the Bible clearly promises rewards and blessings for those believers who are obedient and faithful to Him. The Bible also promises discipline to those of His children who are disobedient to Him, per Heb 12 and many other passages.
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Certainly God "benefits' from our good works, but I don't count baptism as a work. Baptism has more the character of a promise than a work.
What kind of promise?
quote:
Apparently the Apostle Paul saw baptism and grace as nearly synonymous because in Ephesians 2:1-7 he doesn't mention baptism, but in the parallel passage in Colossians, he doesn't mention grace, and yet he was purveying the same message.
It would have been more helpful if you had given the actualy passage in Col, so I could read them both to see what you are saying.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 3:21:45 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7649
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
A requirement for what? NOT for salvation! That's the issue. Those who teach that water baptism is a requirment for salvation today in this dispensation of grace or that it's through some water cermony performed by some priest, or minister that we receive the grace needed to be saved or any other such garbage are preaching a false gospel. By grace THROUGH faith. THROUGH faith. Does that verse not mean anything to anyone around here? I guess not!!
rileykins
It means a great deal to me, rk! Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation, or else the Aposle John failed to communicate that every time he wrote of how to receive eternal life.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 3:23:38 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
Joined: 2/9/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
And if water baptism has any part whatsoever in one's being saved, today, in this dispensation of grace, then Paul was glad that he had only "saved" a few people! In fact he thanked God for it....
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;1Cor.1:14
If you want to get water baptised as a believer, as one who already is saved then go ahead! Do it any way you want to. In the name of Jesus, in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, get sprinkled, get dunked. I could care less about those kinds of arguments. But do not tell me that no one can be saved or is saved unless they are baptised because that's a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God that we are called to preach today, in this dispensation of grace.
rileykins
Rilykins,
No offence intended but I would like to know who tought you your theology and your Bible interpretation. What Paul was thanking God for was that people were not able to use him in their divisive arguments. People were claiming to be followers of the people who baptised them rather then CHrist! Paul knew these people needed to be baptized he just was glad they could not claim that he baptized them and thereby claim to be followers of him instead of Christ.
Since the word baptize is taken from the greek baptismo which means to plunge in, then we need to be plunged into the waters of Baptism. Please tell me where it says that baptism is spiritual not physical (give me the verse with that exact wording. Evangelicals are amazing to me that they want us to interperet the Bible litterally all the time but when it comes to something that does not fit their comfortable parameters then it is ok to symbolize or spiritualize something, I.E. Baptism and EUcahrist.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 3:28:59 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7649
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
Forget about baptism, Paul circumcised Timothy! Why did he do this when Paul knew that Timothy was saved by Grace? Paul did it because God Commanded that the Jews be circumcised as a sign and symbol of their faith.
I suggest you read Acts 16:1-3. Paul circumcised Timothy because he caved in to the pressures of the Jews who thought circumcision was necessary for salvation. He did not do it as part of God's plan. The proof of this is in Gal 2:3, where Paul says, "But not even Titus who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised."
quote:
It was not an option for the Jew to choose if he should undergo this process even through any good Jew will tell you that they are saved by God's grace alone. Paul is quite clear that Baptism is the new circumsision and MUST be done as part of the faith.
Gal 2:3 contradicts you completely.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 3:42:40 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
Joined: 2/9/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
Forget about baptism, Paul circumcised Timothy! Why did he do this when Paul knew that Timothy was saved by Grace? Paul did it because God Commanded that the Jews be circumcised as a sign and symbol of their faith.
I suggest you read Acts 16:1-3. Paul circumcised Timothy because he caved in to the pressures of the Jews who thought circumcision was necessary for salvation. He did not do it as part of God's plan. The proof of this is in Gal 2:3, where Paul says, "But not even Titus who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised."
quote:
It was not an option for the Jew to choose if he should undergo this process even through any good Jew will tell you that they are saved by God's grace alone. Paul is quite clear that Baptism is the new circumsision and MUST be done as part of the faith.
Gal 2:3 contradicts you completely.
Paul caved! are you kidding me the man who recieved 40 lashes minus 1 what 3 or 4 times, caved to the preasure of the Jews! No he had Timothy circumcised because Timothy was a Jew and it was required by God. Titus was Greek and therefore did not need to be Circumcised.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 3:48:40 PM
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rileykins
Posts: 171
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rileykins
And if water baptism has any part whatsoever in one's being saved, today, in this dispensation of grace, then Paul was glad that he had only "saved" a few people! In fact he thanked God for it....
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;1Cor.1:14
If you want to get water baptised as a believer, as one who already is saved then go ahead! Do it any way you want to. In the name of Jesus, in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit, get sprinkled, get dunked. I could care less about those kinds of arguments. But do not tell me that no one can be saved or is saved unless they are baptised because that's a perversion of the gospel of the grace of God that we are called to preach today, in this dispensation of grace.
rileykins
Rilykins,
No offence intended but I would like to know who tought you your theology and your Bible interpretation. What Paul was thanking God for was that people were not able to use him in their divisive arguments. People were claiming to be followers of the people who baptised them rather then CHrist! Paul knew these people needed to be baptized he just was glad they could not claim that he baptized them and thereby claim to be followers of him instead of Christ.
None taken. We receive the gift of salvation by grace through faith, not through faith plus a water ceremony, water ordinance call it whatever you want to, the gift of eternal life is received through faith and nothing else but by grace through faith.
Since the word baptize is taken from the greek baptismo which means to plunge in, then we need to be plunged into the waters of Baptism. Please tell me where it says that baptism is spiritual not physical (give me the verse with that exact wording. Evangelicals are amazing to me that they want us to interperet the Bible litterally all the time but when it comes to something that does not fit their comfortable parameters then it is ok to symbolize or spiritualize something, I.E. Baptism and EUcahrist.
Romans chapter 6...baptised into his death.
rileykins
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