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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:29:33 AM
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P31W
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I like the way you "skipped" the verses in the middle of the passage concerning David breaking the law of Moses and Jesus not condemning it.
Very telling on your part. That you chose to "skip" a central passage dealing with Jesus telling about the law being broken and God not sending David to hell for doing so.
Now I will ask you. Do you see the "principle" Jesus was talking about in that passage? Do you believe David knew the principle?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:32:27 AM
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P31W
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quote:
oh no! are you saying that Jesus is disregarding the bible? What about all scripture is profitable? What about Jesus came to fulfill not to destroy?
No Jesus did't disregard the law. Rather he always upheld the "spirit of the law".....something David himself understood. Jesus was not a "legalist" for the law as the Pharasees. He knew the "spirit" of the law. The law has always been spiritural. Even if many don't know that even today.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:38:21 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I like the way you "skipped" the verses in the middle of the passage concerning David breaking the law of Moses and Jesus not condemning it.
Very telling on your part. That you chose to "skip" a central passage dealing with Jesus telling about the law being broken and God not sending David to hell for doing so.
Now I will ask you. Do you see the "principle" Jesus was talking about in that passage? Do you believe David knew the principle?
hello! you asked me for verses about the law that jesus upheld. what else did you expect.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:40:33 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
This is the second direct quesiton I have asked you that you won't or cannot answer.
To answer your same question yet again...as in the humpteenth time,,,,,,,,
.read very carefully.
I have never said it was "required" I said it's a biblical principle. It's YOU who uses the term required.
I know, I know you don't think tithing is required, you just debate people who don't think tithing is required.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:46:01 AM
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P31W
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What do I expect?
Honesty in discussing the most important book we have. God's word. You chose to leave out key passages to suit your own beliefs.
Your next post is showing once again a lack of your ability to hold on to what you say you believe. You say you believe Cheerful giving is a requirement. I want to debate that.
You said you don't believe people such as myself should teach tithing. Again I debate that.
I have never debated tithing as a "requirement" nor baptism or witnessing or any other "discipline" of the believer. Much less cheerful giving.
You said that you believe tithing is not for the NT believer again I will debate that.
You said it's not biblical again I debate that.
You said many off the wall things on your website that are simply false. I debate that.
What I have never debated is that Tithing is Required.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:48:58 AM
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jbbaab44
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Do you want to hear my answer? then please explain how the fruits of the Spirit have nothing to do with giving? How can love, joy, and peace not express themselves through Godly giving?
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:50:41 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
You said you don't believe people such as myself should teach tithing. Again I debate that.
No i say that you shouldn't teach that tithing is a requirement. Giving 10% is not a sin, or training others to give 10% is not a sin.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:51:15 AM
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P31W
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I debate this teaching of yours as well.
quote:
. In order for a law in the Word of God to be considered an eternal principle, it must duplicate an exact character trait of God.
Your word is not what I believe. Show me in scripture this is true.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:53:11 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
You said that you believe tithing is not for the NT believer again I will debate that.
You said it's not biblical again I debate that.
When i say that tithing is not for the NT believer. i do not condemn personal standards in giving. the mandate of tithing is not biblical. Once again, giving 10% is fine. There is nothing wrong with that. It is not a minimum requirement.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:54:15 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I debate this teaching of yours as well.
quote:
. In order for a law in the Word of God to be considered an eternal principle, it must duplicate an exact character trait of God.
Your word is not what I believe. Show me in scripture this is true.
I want you to give me an eternal principle that is not characterized in God's traits.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:55:12 AM
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P31W
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quote:
I am against saying 10% is a minimum, or a standard, or a requirement for other saints besides yourself.
This is what you said to me just a few days ago.
Sorry but I teach the bible. 10% is a standard in scripture and it is the min. God told us to give back to him.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:56:26 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I am against saying 10% is a minimum, or a standard, or a requirement for other saints besides yourself.
This is what you said to me just a few days ago.
Sorry but I teach the bible. 10% is a standard in scripture and it is the min. God told us to give back to him.
Please show me where it says the tithe is the minimum
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:56:44 AM
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P31W
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It's not MY responsibility to try to contradict your views. It's my responsibilty to spit your view out if they are not biblical.
Now show me what it's biblical. After all that's the "foundation" for your doctrine concerning giving.
You must be able to support your beliefs. not me or anyone else.
Now show me.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 10:57:32 AM
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jbbaab44
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You need to really think about what God expects as a minimum
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 11:01:15 AM
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P31W
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I am not going to play anymore. Some people use the excuse they cannot afford to give a min. of a tithe back to God because they don't want to go to work and earn enough money to do that and support their family.
I won't fall for that trick of satan. Bye
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 11:04:11 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I am not going to play anymore. Some people use the excuse they cannot afford to give a min. of a tithe back to God because they don't want to go to work and earn enough money to do that and support their family.
I won't fall for that trick of satan. Bye
looks like i won this game
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 11:08:09 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
You need to really think about what God expects as a minimum
How do you determine how much to give (keeping in mind we don't really give God anything because all of it came from Him)?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/13/2008 6:34:30 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
The teaching of new T believers to the OT law of tithing is akin to telling NT believers to be circumcised.
The NT strikes this down. Not true with tithing.
quote:
James says if you break one of these commandments, you break the whole law. So if you wanna keep the law of tithing, then you have to be circumcised and the lot.
Also contained in the law was "though shalt not murder", when one has examined a person with a skin infection they are to wash using "running water", removing waste from a camp site and burying. I teach these things as well. As do many of our missionaries.
So you teach them to stone adulterers as well?
quote:
The law of tithes was made for Israel for the purpose of upkeeping the temple priesthood. It was made up of foodstuff there were feasts to celebrate the tithes. The total tithe was not 10%. Itb was more like 25 to 30% in Total.
I believe it's 23.3% over a six year period. Some of the tithe was used for feast but certainly not all of it.
[
quote:
This was the Lord speaking to the priest who were stealing the portions!
This is false. The first part of Malachi is God speaking to the Priest then he turns his attention to the entire group.
1:O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? 7 Ye offer F2 polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible. 8 Ad if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil?
2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you. 2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
quote:
Is your preist/pastor telling you this?
My pastor is better educated than you are. Do you not think I am capable of reading God's word and having the Holy Spirit teach me the deeper spiritural means of scripture and teach me as well what slaps me in the face? Do you believe some of us have college educations and have degrees in various biblical studies?
Do you think we are ignorant of God's word and His ways and we NEED a priest or prophet to teach us. ROFL Give me a break.
Of course he is better than me....i am just a poor prophet....
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 7:40:09 AM
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P31W
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quote:
So you teach them to stone adulterers as well?
No I teach them we are to obey the laws of the land in accordance with Romans 13.
What I don't do is what you did when you used James' passages to try to say the OT laws have no place in the life of the believer. James was talking about "justification". So when I teach that passage I tell the truth and not try to turn it into something it is not. If you continue reading that chapter you will see that even in the OT times NO ONE was saved by obeying the law. " And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend." The passage you twisted to suite your own purposes deals with saving faith and what it will do.
To the part where you are trying to "prove" that God was speaking to the Priest I say as I said earlier. God first began speaking to the Priest then he turned his attention to the entire nation. Continue reading chapter two down to verses 11-12. That is where God turns his attention to the people.
Malachi 2:11-12
11 Judah has broken faith. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the LORD loves, by marrying the daughter of a foreign god. 12 As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the LORD cut him off from the tents of Jacob —even though he brings offerings to the LORD Almighty.
quote:
Of course he is better than me....i am just a poor prophet....
The test for a prophet is that if they say anything that is incorrect or fails to occur then they are not from God and are to be put to death. Of course today we obey the laws of the land. That's why "I" tend to completely ignore them as if they were dead. When they "fail" to speak the Whole Truth and nothing but God's Truth then I know they are not from God as His word says.
What I am doing is obeying the "spirit of the law". Of course it would be to the benefit of many self proclaimed prophets if I decided the law concerning how to know if they are from God or not was to be completely ignored by the NT believer. 
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/14/2008 8:40:26 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/14/2008 11:01:25 PM
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Theophile2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
What OT laws other than the tithe did Jesus appear to confirm - as in something to practice simply because it was in the law?
Mt 5:17-28 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (18) For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. (19) Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (21) "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' (22) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire. (23) So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, (24) leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. (25) Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. (26) Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny. (27) "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' (28) But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Mt 19:17-19 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." (18) He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, (19) Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Mt 22:37-40 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. (38) This is the great and first commandment. (39) And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. (40) On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."
Mat 6:1-4 "Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. (2) "Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. (3) But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, (4) so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.
Act 10:4 And he stared at him in terror and said, "What is it, Lord?" And he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God.
< Message edited by Theophile2 -- 8/14/2008 11:19:10 PM >
_____________________________
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 7:29:24 AM
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P31W
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Sorry but those are OT laws and we are no longer under the law but grace. We can do what we feel the Holy Spirit is telling us to do. So if I believe the Holy Spirit is telling me to have an affair then I can.
After all God wants me to be happy. That is why being a "cheerful giver" is a New Testament requirement.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 8:28:08 AM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
So you teach them to stone adulterers as well?
No I teach them we are to obey the laws of the land in accordance with Romans 13.
What I don't do is what you did when you used James' passages to try to say the OT laws have no place in the life of the believer. James was talking about "justification". So when I teach that passage I tell the truth and not try to turn it into something it is not. If you continue reading that chapter you will see that even in the OT times NO ONE was saved by obeying the law. " And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend." The passage you twisted to suite your own purposes deals with saving faith and what it will do.
WHOAAAAaaaa.....where did i ever said that James meant that none of the OT laws have no place in a believers' life?? i am refering to tithe in the context of the OT law.
What i am poinitng out howver, is that to teach from the OT about tithing equates to saying that the whole law is applicable to the NT believer. You cannot just pick and choose the commandments you wish to apply as James says that breaking one commandment is breaking the whole law.
To the part where you are trying to "prove" that God was speaking to the Priest I say as I said earlier. God first began speaking to the Priest then he turned his attention to the entire nation. Continue reading chapter two down to verses 11-12. That is where God turns his attention to the people.
Malachi 2:11-12
11 Judah has broken faith. A detestable thing has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem: Judah has desecrated the sanctuary the LORD loves, by marrying the daughter of a foreign god. 12 As for the man who does this, whoever he may be, may the LORD cut him off from the tents of Jacob —even though he brings offerings to the LORD Almighty.
Mal 3:
3And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness..............
7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Who? Sons of Levi.....the Levitthical priests
We are indeed under grace. To teach someone to tithe after the OT laws is not right.....
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2008 8:45:44 AM
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P31W
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quote:
What i am poinitng out howver, is that to teach from the OT about tithing equates to saying that the whole law is applicable to the NT believer.
quote:
We are indeed under grace. To teach someone to tithe after the OT laws is not right.....
Ac 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: 'Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.'"
Ooop! It appears that Paul himself was using the OT law and applying it to his actions. And this was YEARS after the resurrection.
1 Corinthians 9
8 Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn't we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
I take it you completely ignore any of Christ teachings that we also contained in the law as well.
Notice God tells me that the law was written for the NC believer. To learn from and apply it's wisdom.
quote:
Who? Sons of Levi.....the Levitthical priests
Let me help you out here. I notice your bible must be missing the middle section because it shows your view is incorrect pretty clearly and you didn't post it. So the "only logical' reason I can think of for your omitting these relevant passages is because you have an incomplete bible.
I will post the entire chapter so you won't make that mistake again in teaching it was only for the Levites or the Priest.
1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the Lord Almighty. 2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the Lord will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the Lord, as in days gone by, as in former years. 5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the Lord Almighty. 6 "I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the Lord Almighty. "But you ask, 'How are we to return?' 8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse--the whole nation of you--because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the Lord Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the Lord Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the Lord Almighty.
13 "You have said harsh things against me," says the Lord. "Yet you ask, 'What have we said against you?' 14 "You have said, 'It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? 15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.'" 16 Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. 17 "They will be mine," says the Lord Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.
Remember the first chapter and a portion of Chapter 2 up to verse 10 is speaking to the Levitical Preisthood. Then from verse eleven on to the end of the book he is speaking to the entire nation. I think you can remember that if you just find a new bible with all the passages of scripture in it.
And remember all scripture is written for the man/woman of God inorder to fully equipt them to know what is right, what is wrong, how to get righ | | |
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