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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:38:15 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: jbbaab44
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Are you going to admit that two of your foundational doctrines are in opposition to God's word?
Are you going to admit that joy is a fruit of the Spirit?
Joy has nothing to do with cheerfulness. Nothing. Cheerfulness is a mood, an emotion based on your current state of mind. It can be drummed up or dashed depending on circumstances.
Joy transcends circumstances and is based on a sure status of our position in Jesus Christ. You emotional state or mood can bounce all over the map but biblical, Holy Spirit produced Joy remains steadfast, like biblical Hope. If you don't have that kind of steadfast Joy, then yours is something else, an unreliable emotional condition.
I apologize for my semantics, but i agree with you 100%. I am not talking about the fleshly expression or emotion (i stated that before).
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:42:03 PM
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P31W
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quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
Psalms 19:7-14
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. 8 The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are radiant, giving light to the eyes. 9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:44:11 PM
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P31W
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In order for a law in the Word of God to be considered an eternal principle, it must duplicate an exact character trait of God.
Above is another false doctrine you teach that I debate.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:45:04 PM
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jbbaab44
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Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:47:34 PM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
In order for a law in the Word of God to be considered an eternal principle, it must duplicate an exact character trait of God.
Above is another false doctrine you teach that I debate.
That's my definition of eternal principle. What's yours?
Oh that's right. God only sacrificed 10% of himself.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:50:32 PM
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jbbaab44
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Eternal statements you will find in the bible:
Eternal life
Eternal word
Eternal power
Eternal purpose
Eternal glory
Eternal salvation
Eternal redemption
Eternal Spirit
Everlasting Covenant
Everlasting Gospel
Everlasting kingdom
Eternal Inheritance
Eternal Fire
Eternal King
Everlasting Love
Everlasting consolation
Sorry, don't see tithing
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 12:50:36 PM
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P31W
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quote:
That's my definition of eternal principle.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2008 9:43:19 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
jbbaab44 quote
All of scripture is showing how Jesus came to release us from petty ordinances that are imperfect. Including tithing.
This is false doctrine and contradicts God's clear teachings about His ordinances and laws.
God also never made "cheerfulness a requirment". That is another false doctrine.
Gods perfect as in all His ways......
But there are different covenants......we in a better one....
2 Cor
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. F8 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. 15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. 16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away. 17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 7:45:57 AM
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P31W
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quote:
But there are different covenants......we in a better one....
This is not a salvation issue. However our works do give us an indicator as to wether or not we have true saving faith or dead faith.
I don't believe one poster on tis entire thread all 3100 and somthing post has said we are to ahear to the law unless it came from one who does not believe in the tithing principle.
quote:
When Paul raised a collection from among the Gentiles for the support of the Jerusalem church, he doesn't mention 10%, at least in his writings. Why not?
Let's put on our thinking caps for a minute. First Paul told them they were to provide for the widows in their midst who were widows indeed. Then he told them they were to support their leaders in the Church (he even used OT law to show that what he was teaching was from God and not man made theology) and to give a double portion to those who were hard workers...(my paraphrase) and then they were to also provide for the poor and needy in their area.
Now Paul is taking up a free will offering for people who were "outside" their area. People who they didn't even know. There was also a "time limit" put on this one time collection.
Maybe Paul didn't say 10% because this was going into the area of "sacrificial offerings" given to help poor Christians they didn't even know. Much like my Chruch does when we take up relief offerings for Katrina victoms or others who are suffering that are complete strangers to us. Or when we take up money to help missionaries on the field that we don't know.
I also don't believe that the Gentiles had a problem with giving back to God. They came out of paganism where it was common to give back to their God's a child, their own bodies to be sexually abused, self mutilization (sp) and so on. I don't believe a mere 10% was somthing that they would consider giving "less than". After all now they worshiped the one true God and they certainly gave him gratitude then their false gods.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/19/2008 8:09:34 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 7:52:45 AM
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P31W
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quote:
It's not clear that Jesus was speaking to "us" when he told certain people to adhere to the law.
So when you have a "doubt" about something you error on the side of ?????
I on the other hand have no doubt. God told me that all scripture was "written" for me. What is recorded is for "us". Not every work Jesus or Paul spoke is recorded. But God tells us that what is recorded is recorded for "our benefit".
Remember what is "written" is written for us.
8 Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn't he? Yes, this was written for us,
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
notice it's the scripture not every thing Paul, Moses, David, James, Peter, etc.... spoke that is God breathed. But the "scriptures" what we have in our cannnon of scripture.
Ro 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/19/2008 8:05:06 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 9:30:27 AM
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jbbaab44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
Maybe Paul didn't say 10% because this was going into the area of "sacrificial offerings" given to help poor Christians they didn't even know.
What's all this fuss about giving "outside" their region? In the OT do you think you knew who your tithe was going to be given to? Yeah, sure, it would be given to an Israelite, but who knows who? If your tithe was sent to Jerusalem, it could have been given to an Israelite in a completely different tribe.
It doesn't matter if the saints were giving to someone across the globe, they were still giving to their own body. The fact that it was given out of their jurisdiction does not matter. The whole tithe was not even distributed locally. So what's all this fuss about the fact that they gave "outside" their area. Israel was one nation with many tribes. We are one with many members.
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 10:57:20 AM
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P31W
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quote:
In the OT do you think you knew who your tithe was going to be given to?
Yes. It's easy to find out in the scripture if you read all of it. It's not hard to find the truth of the matter "if" truth matters to you.
Numbers 35:1-8
1 On the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho, the Lord said to Moses, 2 "Command the Israelites to give the Levites towns to live in from the inheritance the Israelites will possess. And give them pasturelands around the towns. 3 Then they will have towns to live in and pasturelands for their cattle, flocks and all their other livestock. 4 "The pasturelands around the towns that you give the Levites will extend out fifteen hundred feet from the town wall. 5 Outside the town, measure three thousand feet on the east side, three thousand on the south side, three thousand on the west and three thousand on the north, with the town in the center. They will have this area as pastureland for the towns. 6 "Six of the towns you give the Levites will be cities of refuge, to which a person who has killed someone may flee. In addition, give them forty-two other towns. 7 In all you must give the Levites forty-eight towns, together with their pasturelands. 8 The towns you give the Levites from the land the Israelites possess are to be given in proportion to the inheritance of each tribe: Take many towns from a tribe that has many, but few from one that has few."
To learn more about what each tribe gave (as in the land) go to Joshua 21
Numbers 18:26 "Moreover, you shall speak to the Levites and say to them, 'When you take from the sons of Israel the tithe which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then you shall present an offering from it to the LORD, a tithe of the tithe.
Third year tithe to be taken to your city gate.
Deuteronomy 26:12-15
12 When you have finished setting aside a tenth of all your produce in the third year, the year of the tithe, you shall give it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied. 13 Then say to the Lord your God: "I have removed from my house the sacred portion and have given it to the Levite, the alien, the fatherless and the widow, according to all you commanded. I have not turned aside from your commands nor have I forgotten any of them. 14 I have not eaten any of the sacred portion while I was in mourning, nor have I removed any of it while I was unclean, nor have I offered any of it to the dead. I have obeyed the Lord my God; I have done everything you commanded me. 15 Look down from heaven, your holy dwelling place, and bless your people Israel and the land you have given us as you promised on oath to our forefathers, a land flowing with milk and honey."
quote:
What's all this fuss about giving "outside" their region?
What I said was a statement of fact. I believe it's you who are making a fuss over that fact.
It would be wrong to give food and money to help people outside your own congregation when those within your congregation were starving to death. It would be wrong to support missionary efforts of people I don't know when I don't support "my own teachers/preachers".
If you don't provide for your own children but feed others then you not following the principle God laid out in scripture.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/19/2008 11:36:14 AM >
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 12:16:37 PM
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jbbaab44
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The truth is some of the tithe was given to people outside their own tribe and was also given to people they didn't know.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 4:40:12 PM
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Strider33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I on the other hand have no doubt. God told me that all scripture was "written" for me. What is recorded is for "us". Not every work Jesus or Paul spoke is recorded. But God tells us that what is recorded is recorded for "our benefit".
So, is your interpretation of scripture inerrant?
Were the OT scriptures that were given for our benefit given so that we would give 10%? Is it an error to interpret the scriptures in acts to mean that we are not asked to conform to the Jewish law? What about circumcision? Are Christians supposed to circumcise their sons? If not, then why not?
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 7:48:36 PM
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prophet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
But there are different covenants......we in a better one....
This is not a salvation issue. However our works do give us an indicator as to wether or not we have true saving faith or dead faith.
The covenant is not just about salvation - there are conditons which is part and parcel opf covenants.
The OT law is part of the Mosaic covenant.
See again......
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. F8 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
The ministartion of death engraved in stone is the law given to Moses. The tithe is part of this law.
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2008 7:53:57 PM
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prophet
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Scripture was written to teach us, YES. But not all scriptures applies to NT believers.
We are not jews under Mosiac law. We are under the law of the Spirit.
When Jesus taught the jewish audience, they were under the Mosaic law. His death had not come yet. Remember when He died, the curtain was torn. The way to the Father was direct thro Jesus, not some ritual of the OT.
If you preach tithe, you have to preach the other 613 commandments......this is the whole law.
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:00:19 AM
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P31W
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quote:
If you preach tithe, you have to preach the other 613 commandments......this is the whole law.
Anyone here teaching the tithe law?
Nope.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:11:40 AM
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P31W
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quote:
What about circumcision? Are Christians supposed to circumcise their sons? If not, then why not?
Col2: 11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
A Christian can if they want to. I had my son circumcised because of the wonderful health benefits. I also realize that God's laws were not about "busy work" but most of them contain some wonderful wisdom that many of us don't even realize.
For example do you know the black plague could have been avoided had the people simply understood the wisdom contained in God's laws and turned to them inorder to see the "wisdom" contained in them? Thousands of people died because Christians failed to realize the wonderful truths contained in God's laws.
Today many of our health and sanitation laws are traced back to OT laws.
In this entire thread I have not seen where one person gave the views of a Judiazer. (works are required for salvation).
What this thread is about are people who see the beauty in God's perfect laws and because of the wisdom contained there (that one can only find in God) we use those laws inorder to uncover the deeper spiritural principles we can apply to our lives.
Anyone who believes we teach the law are without any kind of understanding what so ever......
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:19:37 AM
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P31W
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If people continue to accuse us of being Judiazers then I will view those people as Antinomianism and leave the thread. I won't play with people who "want" to be ignorant.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:20:15 AM
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jbbaab44
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I'd like you to find some verses that repeal the OT commands below.
-Do not let illegitimate children into the House of God (Deuteronomy 23:2)
-You should marry your dead brothers wife. (Deuteronomy 25:5-10)
-If someone is attacking a husband and the wife helps protect her husband by hitting the attacker in the groin then her hand must be cut off. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
-You cannot wear clothes with different kinds of material (Leviticus 19:19)
-When you move to a new place you can't eat the local fruit for 3 years. (Leviticus 19:23,24)
-Ministers cannot shave any part of their head. (Leviticus 21:5)
-Anyone who has any kind of physical defect cannot go near the altar of God or give offerings. (Leviticus 21:16-23)
-Ministers in the House of God could not serve more than 25 years. Ages 25-50. (Numbers 8:24)
-No more veal Parmesan (Exodus 23:19)
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Church tithe & Offerings - New Testament Tithing
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:23:08 AM
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Strider33
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quote:
So when you have a "doubt" about something you error on the side of ?????
I already dealt with that in my opening remark.
quote:
I on the other hand have no doubt. God told me that all scripture was "written" for me. What is recorded is for "us". Not every work Jesus or Paul spoke is recorded. But God tells us that what is recorded is recorded for "our benefit".
That's smug. For nearly two thousand years, since the books of the NT were written down, Christians have been struggling with the applicability of the OT scripture to the life of the new covenant believer. To suggest that all people who have thus struggled lacked your simple understanding of what scripture meant is to set yourself on a very high pedestal.
quote:
Remember what is "written" is written for us.
Of course. But whether it was written so that we would follow the literal instructions of the OT, or to provide us with context is a point about which genuine Christians may well differ.
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Not all those who wander are lost.
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RE: Tithes and Offerings - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2008 8:23:27 AM
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P31W
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The Misuse of God’s Law in Christian Living
The Scourge of Antinomianism
By Dr. Richard P. Bucher
So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good . . . For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin (Romans 7:12,14).
(Note: by "God's Law" in this article I basically mean the Ten Commandments and all those passages that further explain the Ten Commandments in the Old and New Testaments; In the Bible, everything is God's Law "which teaches what is right and God-pleasing and which condemns everything that is contrary to God's will" Formula of Concord, Epitome V:2).
One of the most vexing problems for the Christian Church throughout history has been how to use God's Law in Christian living, the area of sanctification. The area of justification is perhaps less problematic to many. We have been saved "apart from the Law" (Rom. 3:21). We are justified not by the works of the Law but by faith in Jesus Christ who fulfilled the Law and died on our behalf (Rom. 3:20-28; Rom. 8:1-3; Rom. 10:1-4; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-9).
But more difficult is this question: After the Christian is converted what place does God's Law, His commandments have in Christian living? As Paul points out in Romans 7 above, the difficulty lies not in God's Law. It is holy and good. The difficulty is caused by our fallenness.
Unfortunately, because of our fallenness, many Christians of yesterday and today, in fact, entire denominations and movements, have been guilty of two grave misuses of God's Law in Christian living. These two wrong ways of using God's Law in Christian living have warped the Christian faith, brought about a false piety, and have caused untold harm, frustration, or despair in the lives of God's people. What are these two misuses? The first misuse of God's Law is antinomianism: refusing to use God's Law in part or in whole. The second is legalism: basing one's relationship with God on His Law and insisting on laws and commandments that God does not insist on.......
Though it is true that in Jesus Christ Christians have been set free from the curse and punishment of the Law (Gal. 3:13; 4:4), they still need the Law preached to them because they are still sinners. It is true that Christians are temples of the Holy Spirit who guides them through the new man. It is also true that Christians have the Law written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31:31-34; 2 Cor. 3:3). But in this life Christians are still saddled by the sinful flesh, which powerfully tempts them to sin against God (Romans 7:14-25; Gal. 5:16-24). Therefore the Ten Commandments and God's Law are needed to coerce the sinful flesh to follow the Spirit's leading; God's Law is needed to be a mirror, to open Christian's eyes to their sin and to drive them to Christ for forgiveness; God's Law is needed to be a guide, so that Christians do what He wants, not invent their own piety, good works, or worship.
Agricola's antinomianism, that the Law should not be preached to Christians, would be like someone arguing that it is wrong for a doctor to diagnose the illnesses of his patients; that it is wrong for a doctor to give advice about achieving good health through exercise and diet. The Law functions in the same way. It diagnoses areas of sin in our lives that are harmful to us. It gives us guidance on how to become spiritually healthy and God-pleasing in all we say, do, or think.
to read the entire article you can go to the site below
http://www.orlutheran.com/html/antinom.html
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/20/2008 8:30:01 AM >
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