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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:22:53 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 7081
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Funny that you align with the RCC on this Sad that you think holiness doctrine is "funny". Even sadder that Calvinism seems to be out of mainstream Christian understanding when it comes to personal righteousness and allowing God to empower us to obey Him.
I didn't say I thought holiness doctrine is funny. That is a misrepresentation, a bearing false witness, of my statement, whether intentionally or not.
You very obviously understand the English language and know that "funny" used like that means "strange" or "interesting" or "curious". There's no need to make an issue out of trivial matters like that.
I still think it's funny curious strange that you align yourself with a group that, in practice, expects its members to be in regular need of sin confession like there's no good reason to think they won't sin continually.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:29:41 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 7081
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From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Euty,
Would you consider the Baptist denomination as a Wesleyan/Holiness denomination? I've attended FBC's since I was born, and I know for a fact that the church I attend now believes in the ability for Christians to live perfectly.
No, I don't consider Southern Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness denomination. But the Free Will Baptists, where I spent my first 34 years, might be. It's the group that became the most legalistic bunch I've ever been a part of, as they constantly redefined what was and wasn't sin from women's attire to one's opinion about the alcohol content of the wine Jesus made at the marriage feast. They are an excellent example of the polar opposite to antinomianism.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:32:09 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 167
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quote:
They are only wrong if their assurance lies in the fruit they produce. There is no assurance in good deeds, but rather in God's promises. I just wish Piper and Sproul would realize such a simplistic Biblical truth. Their lives would be filled with much more assurance and much less fearful terror...
Piper seems to have no fearful terror. The Dangerous Duty of Delight. Meditations of a Christian Hedonist.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:37:53 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 2123
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Euty,
Would you consider the Baptist denomination as a Wesleyan/Holiness denomination? I've attended FBC's since I was born, and I know for a fact that the church I attend now believes in the ability for Christians to live perfectly.
No, I don't consider Southern Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness denomination. But the Free Will Baptists, where I spent my first 34 years, might be. It's the group that became the most legalistic bunch I've ever been a part of, as they constantly redefined what was and wasn't sin from women's attire to one's opinion about the alcohol content of the wine Jesus made at the marriage feast. They are an excellent example of the polar opposite to antinomianism.
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:42:27 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 7081
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
When you wrote "FBC" I was thinking First Baptist Church, which is usually SBC. I've steered away from Independent Baptists for a couple of reasons, one of which is that their doctrines vary so much. So, I couldn't venture an informed opinion about them on this doctrine.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:49:17 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5300
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
I didn't say I thought holiness doctrine is funny. That is a misrepresentation, a bearing false witness, of my statement, whether intentionally or not. Just like I didn't say that I aligned with the RCC on this! Is that a misrepresentation, a bearing false witness of my statement, whether intentional or not?
quote:
I still think it's funny curious strange that you align yourself with a group that, in practice, expects its members to be in regular need of sin confession like there's no good reason to think they won't sin continually. And I think it's equally "stange" that Calvinism fails to "align" with the majority of Christendom on a very basic concept of biblical doctrine. But, we won't be settling this 500 year old debate today, Eutychus.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:51:29 PM
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evry1needsgod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
When you wrote "FBC" I was thinking First Baptist Church, which is usually SBC. I've steered away from Independent Baptists for a couple of reasons, one of which is that their doctrines vary so much. So, I couldn't venture an informed opinion about them on this doctrine.
Oh, I'm so sorry. My mistake. I guess I had thought the word "Fundamental" and wrote FBC instead of IBC.
And thank you for your answer. Indeed they vary, hence their independence. I guess I've just associated myself with Holiness preaching independent Baptists all my life, although I know of many IBC churches who are vastly different.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 4:55:03 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5300
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Oh, indeed, I am partially right and you are partially wrong... 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/29/2009 5:05:00 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5300
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We all have growing in grace to do! 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 5:59:17 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2796
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
rwe: You apparently dont' think there should be evidence of change.
Please provide my post # where I've said this...
#15603
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
But Perseverance teaches salvation IS a reality with real-life tangible effects.
assurance goes beyond what we think: Its a changed life, a new "wanter".
Translation: No fruit, no root. But we must be careful. We are looking at a
movie, not a snapshot of people's lives. None of us look to good, do we?
A pastor I know put it this way: "If A is before you were saved, B is when you
were saved, and C is after you were saved, A should be different than C."
Your reply: This is precisely why I am not a 1 point Calvinist
quote:
RWE: What do you think is the relationship between fruit and sinlessness?
E1: I don't understand this question.
Think about it. The are related.
quote:
E1: Socially and visibly...I'm sure there are people you have known
in the past who are more dedicated to do right than you were,
yet you knew they unsaved.
So what? There good works are sin, not fruit.
quote:
And just how do you know they are not, in fact, saved?
quote:
Many non-believers in the world live nearly perfect lives. Would you agree? No, I would not agree.
The flesh cannot please God.
A saved person helps a widow woman fix her car.
Faith + a work = righteous act.
An unsaved person does the same thing. It is filthy rags. It is sin.
quote:
Like many have said already, I can sin all I want, but I just don't want to sin. Great. You shouldn't. But intentions don't make you perfect.
You still sin. But God knows the heart. God loves a repentant heart.
quote:
Yes it sure does, which is why I do not place my confidence in my
works, but rather in God's promises. It sure does, rwe, which is why I'm
not even a 1-pointer
Brother, if you had no works to accompany your faith, you can
have no assurance you have received the Holy Spirit, period.
The fact is, you do have works. Whether they assure you or not, they
are evidence of what you have received.
I seems you have so much animosity towards anything even hinting
of reformed thought your reject it, even though your words agree with it.
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 7:33:25 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2796
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Euty,
Would you consider the Baptist denomination as a Wesleyan/Holiness denomination? I've attended FBC's since I was born, and I know for a fact that the church I attend now believes in the ability for Christians to live perfectly.
No, I don't consider Southern Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness denomination. But the Free Will Baptists, where I spent my first 34 years, might be. It's the group that became the most legalistic bunch I've ever been a part of, as they constantly redefined what was and wasn't sin from women's attire to one's opinion about the alcohol content of the wine Jesus made at the marriage feast. They are an excellent example of the polar opposite to antinomianism.
If I think I have achieved more "perfection", then what about others
who who are struggling with sin and have not gained victory yet?
I think it would be the birthplace of legalism and foster judgmentalist
attitudes towards others.
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 7:57:55 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2796
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
Our new pastor is from an Ind. backround.
At the last Lord's supper he made a statement that you can't come
to the table if you have sin. That made a few people (myself included)
question why he would say that.
Now I know. Its because of different definitions of sin.
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 9:20:59 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2796
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
The logical conclusion of Calvinism taken to its extreme is always antinomianism! An the logical conclusion of your theology is what?
Drmark, the logical conclusion of ANY theology taken to its extreme is always wrong.
Your extreme view of Calvinism doesn't mean you throw the whole theological
system in the trash! You admit you are partially correct, so why make such
a statement?
It just not an intellectually honest argument to constantly
portray the extreme views and then declare the position wrong.
I was guilty of the same thing when I argued against depravity.
But — when one uses the words "sinless" and "perfection" to describe
the Christian life, I don't see how that's not an extreme view, sir.
Its a world where sinless means something other than "without sin" and
perfection something other than "complete or mature".
I can have a heart devoted to God and call this "perfect" or holy,
but there is no way I will be devoted to God 24/7/365 for every
time I sin, my actions deny what I have received and who I am.
Truly, we have this treasure in jars of clay.............
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 9:47:48 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2796
Joined: 4/19/2005
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Let me correct a possible misconception.
I don't believe we can live anyway we want. There is no license to sin.
The Christian life is characterized by a repentant heart constant conviction
over one's sin, spiritual growth, etc.
One of my very close friends is a pastor in the Church of God.
We were joking around about our denominational differences
one day and he made the comment that we Baptists can just
do anything we want cause we can't lose it. My reply was, "Hey,
sin all the more so grace will abound!" Chuckle chuckle, but unfortunately
that is the common perception I think other denoms have about us.
The truth is, there is a tacit acceptance of backsliding and unholy living
in my denomination. I was discussing this with my pastor and told him
backsliding should be an accusation, not an excuse. He disagrees with
me and implied that causes a legalist attitude.
Drmark — I have had lots of people accuse me of being a legalist or
a Puritan because I think holiness is a guarantee and the Christian
life is an expectation, not a hope.
Stocks, scarlet letters, and burning witches was wrong, but I would
never say the Puritans had it all wrong.
Evry1, I'm secure because I believe the promises of God. I can think the
fruit I am bearing is from myself and works not needed for salvation, and
fruit is not an assurance, that's fine.
.................. but that's a deception.
I could also sit around doing nothing thinking I am perfect
and sinless and holy................that's also a deception.
< Message edited by rwe2156 -- 10/30/2009 11:19:51 AM >
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 9:57:26 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 7081
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
Our new pastor is from an Ind. backround.
At the last Lord's supper he made a statement that you can't come
to the table if you have sin. That made a few people (myself included)
question why he would say that.
Now I know. Its because of different definitions of sin.
It could also be a misunderstanding of Paul's admonition not to take Communion "unworthily" (in an unworthy manner). The legalist FWB preachers I sat under tried to make it say not to take Communion if you are unworthy, which is an entirely different thing, since none of us are worthy, except in Christ by God's grace.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 9:59:47 AM
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Eutychus
Posts: 7081
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
...the logical conclusion of ANY theology taken to its extreme is always wrong...
That is an excellent and true observation.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 10:06:18 AM
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Reba
Posts: 822
Joined: 8/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
Our new pastor is from an Ind. backround.
At the last Lord's supper he made a statement that you can't come
to the table if you have sin. That made a few people (myself included)
question why he would say that.
Now I know. Its because of different definitions of sin.
Same in the AofG how often i remember the "cleanse yourself" ( as if we can) speech before the offer of the Table.
It is not what we have done or we do but ONLY what He has done.
Gal 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.
Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 1:07:33 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 2123
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
#15603
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
But Perseverance teaches salvation IS a reality with real-life tangible effects.
assurance goes beyond what we think: Its a changed life, a new "wanter".
Translation: No fruit, no root. But we must be careful. We are looking at a
movie, not a snapshot of people's lives. None of us look to good, do we?
A pastor I know put it this way: "If A is before you were saved, B is when you
were saved, and C is after you were saved, A should be different than C."
Your reply: This is precisely why I am not a 1 point Calvinist
I did not say that there's no evidence of change, rwe. I am not a 1-point Calvinist because of what I've found Calvinists to describe Perseverance. You place your trust in your works because therein lies your confidence. That's why I'm not a 1-pointer, because my confidence/assurance lies in the promises of God!
quote:
Think about it. The are related.
I still don't understand your question, brother...
quote:
So what? There good works are sin, not fruit.
I know that, and I agree! But if your confidence/assurance lies in fruit, and millions of non-believers put your life to shame in outward perfection, then how do you know you are one of the elect? If you rely on your own fruit to prove to you your salvation, you will never have assurance, my friend. If I were you, I'd rely on what the Bible says instead.
quote:
No, I would not agree.
The flesh cannot please God.
A saved person helps a widow woman fix her car.
Faith + a work = righteous act.
An unsaved person does the same thing. It is filthy rags. It is sin.
I know I know, rwe. That's not what I meant. The visible fruit we produce can be compared to that of a non-believer--we give money to the poor because we love God, they give money to the poor to save on their taxes. But if we do not know the intentions of the non-believer, one would look at their life and assume that surely they must be a Christian because they live their lives almost perfectly (they never murder, cheat, steal, raise their voice, hate people, etc etc).
I know many people who live nearly perfect (socially and visibly speaking) lives, yet most likely are not believers.
quote:
Brother, if you had no works to accompany your faith, you can
have no assurance you have received the Holy Spirit, period.
The fact is, you do have works. Whether they assure you or not, they
are evidence of what you have received.
I seems you have so much animosity towards anything even hinting
of reformed thought your reject it, even though your words agree with it.
Again, I never said that my life will not produce works. If the "P" in TULIP simply references the fruit a Christian will produce, then yes I am a 1-point Calvinist. But like it or not, that is not what Perseverance of the Saints has come to be known as. I can not and WILL NOT place my trust in the fruit I produce. Therein lies no confidence or assurance whatsoever! I'm standing on the promises of God!
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 1:10:44 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 2123
Joined: 2/4/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
Our new pastor is from an Ind. backround.
At the last Lord's supper he made a statement that you can't come
to the table if you have sin. That made a few people (myself included)
question why he would say that.
Now I know. Its because of different definitions of sin.
Um, no, actually it's because what the Bible says.
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 1:20:38 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 2123
Joined: 2/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Eutychus
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
Our new pastor is from an Ind. backround.
At the last Lord's supper he made a statement that you can't come
to the table if you have sin. That made a few people (myself included)
question why he would say that.
Now I know. Its because of different definitions of sin.
It could also be a misunderstanding of Paul's admonition not to take Communion "unworthily" (in an unworthy manner). The legalist FWB preachers I sat under tried to make it say not to take Communion if you are unworthy, which is an entirely different thing, since none of us are worthy, except in Christ by God's grace.
Can you explain? I think Paul makes it quite clear that we our hearts need to be pure when we participate in communion.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
1Co 11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
1Co 11:33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.
1Co 11:34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.
It seems as though we are to examine ourselves and judge ourselves lest we partake in communion unworthily. Paul even tells us that many get sick or even die because they disobeyed! And Paul, in v34, basically tells us not to even come to communion if for the wrong intentions. Christians back then often came to communion to literally feast, to fill their bellies, to EAT...their intentions were wrong, their motives were wrong, their hearts were wrong, and they are asked to stay home lest they come into condemnation.
So yes, I think that communion is something that were are commanded to observe with a clean and forgiven heart. If one has unconfessed sin on their hearts, they need to either stay home or get right with the Lord.
_____________________________
"Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!"--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 2:15:02 PM
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Eutychus
Posts: 7081
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dothan, AL
Status: offline
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The context of what you quoted is that prior to coming together for communion, people were having what became known as the love feast, but some were getting drunk and acting like stuck up pigs, filling their gut while allowing poor believers to go without.
The command was to examine themselves to make sure they weren't acting like unsaved fools, i.e. unworthily. The notion by some preachers that only the "worthy" should partake is rooted in legalism and/or poor interpretation. I've heard those same type "scholars" preach that Jesus turned the water into grape juice and to suggest otherwise is a sign of being a reprobate.
_____________________________
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent." -John 6:29
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 2:34:29 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2676
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
So would you say that IBC's vary on this issue? I don't know much about Southern Baptists or FWB's, but the three Independent Baptist churches that I've been a member of believe in sinless perfection. I was just wondering if you would consider Independent Baptists as a Wesleyan/Holiness doctrine. In my experience, I'd certainly consider them Holiness preaching churches, although they were quite different from Wesleyan.
Our new pastor is from an Ind. backround.
At the last Lord's supper he made a statement that you can't come
to the table if you have sin. That made a few people (myself included)
question why he would say that.
Now I know. Its because of different definitions of sin.
Um, no, actually it's because what the Bible says.
Passage please?
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/30/2009 3:08:51 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2796
Joined: 4/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
I know that, and I agree! But if your confidence/assurance lies in fruit, and millions of non-believers put your life to shame in outward perfection, then how do you know you are one of the elect? If you rely on your own fruit to prove to you your salvation, you will never have assurance, my friend. If I were you, I'd rely on what the Bible says instead.
1. I know I am one of the elect because I bear spiritual
fruit. I bear fruit that I know I would never bear if the Holy Spirit
did not dwell in me.
2. Your comparison is non-believers null and void. We are not talking about helping a little old lady across the street or buying Girl Scout cookies, E1. We are talking about more - spiritual fruit such as
repenting, prayer, loving the Word, loving the brethren, etc.
3. I am not relying on my own fruit to "prove" my salvation, bro.
I know my fruit does not determine it or maintain it. My fruit is
evidence, that 's all. My fruit reassures me in a real way.
Example: I can say I trust the Lord all day long, but until a real life
situation comes where my faith is tested, I cannot be sure.
quote:
The visible fruit we produce can be compared to that of a non-believer--we give money to the poor because we love God,
they give money to the poor to save on their taxes. But if we do
not know the intentions of the non-believer, one would look at their
life and assume that surely they must be a Christian because they
live their lives almost perfectly (they never murder, cheat, steal,
raise their voice, hate people, etc etc).
Its God's business to separate the false professors and and the tares.
I am not judging people's salvation by their fruit.
I'm saying if a person makes a profession but there is no
spiritual fruit, there's a problem.
Perhaps I have made an error in not specifying spiritual fruit.
quote:
If the "P" in TULIP simply references the fruit a Christian will produce, then yes I am a 1-point Calvinist. But like it or not, that is not what Perseverance of the Saints has come to be known as.
I guess we are disagreeing on different things, then.
I totally agree with your first statement.
If I say perseverance means a true believer does not fall away,
would you agree with that?
quote:
I can not and WILL NOT place my trust in the fruit I produce. Therein lies no confidence or assurance whatsoever! I'm standing
on the promises of God! OK, I'll accept that.
For me, if a person bears no spiritual fruit, they have a dead faith.
_____________________________
Fiction: There is more than one way to be saved.
Fact: There is more than one way to understand
how we were saved.
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