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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/1/2009 11:38:59 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 1757
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Rwe,
I have written a reply to you post #15700, but I'd appreciate it if we moved this discussion to its appropriate thread. Go ahead and post your 15700 in my thread, PM me when you do, and I'll post my reply accordingly as soon as I'm available. Thanks.
In Christ,
ZG
_____________________________
< Don't make fun of my deer. It's spethal!
Believers are saved from their sin, not merely in their sinning!--drmark
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 6:17:10 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Rwe,
I have written a reply to you post #15700, but I'd appreciate it if we moved this discussion to its appropriate thread. Go ahead and post your 15700 in my thread, PM me when you do, and I'll post my reply accordingly as soon as I'm available. Thanks.
In Christ,
ZG
Thanks but no thanks. I think this has run its course.
You have fun with drmark over there, OK?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 7:13:59 AM
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TheosCentric
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The problem with sinless perfectionism is that it doesn't account for why believers still sin.
One is taught that they are "perfect" in Christ and don't have sin. What happens when you lie, look at pornography, drive over the speedlimit, etc.? You're back at the beginning again.
We are righteous in Christ, yes. When the Father looks at us, He sees Christ.
We are able to not sin, yes. That does not mean that we will not sin, as the holiness doctrine demands. Paul tells us that we will war with the flesh (our old nature), but that we are being changed.
Saints are not saved, but sinners are being changed into saints.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 8:20:51 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The problem with sinless perfectionism is that it doesn't account for why believers still sin. TC, the problem with "sinless perfectionism" is that it's a made-up term that you are misusing to incorrectly misrepresent a mainstream doctrine of Protestantism. The fact is that "Christian Perfection" is a well-defined doctrinal tradition that biblically explains the exact reason why some Believers still willfully sin and others have received God's grace and power to stop willful sinning. If you would like to learn more in order to be better informed in this discussion, I would be happy to provide some useful links. If not, then God bless you in your ongoing ignorance of Wesleyan/Holiness theology.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 9:33:55 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
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Theos -
You're wasting your time, friend.
You are arguing with someone who defines the word sin and perfect another way.
I already posted Phil 3:12—16 and it was ignored.
I suggest you bail. You'll never convince him them they are not perfect.
Apparently they have something Paul didn't, huh?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 9:42:27 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2807
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I consider Eternal Security a promise to God's children and
Perseverance as evidence we are one of his children.
Those who persevere and bear spiritual fruit have a right claim they are secure.
Those who fall away and bear no fruit have no right to the claim.
Is this how the two are related?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/2/2009 9:59:17 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2689
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
The problem with sinless perfectionism is that it doesn't account for why believers still sin. TC, the problem with "sinless perfectionism" is that it's a made-up term that you are misusing to incorrectly misrepresent a mainstream doctrine of Protestantism. The fact is that "Christian Perfection" is a well-defined doctrinal tradition that biblically explains the exact reason why some Believers still willfully sin and others have received God's grace and power to stop willful sinning. If you would like to learn more in order to be better informed in this discussion, I would be happy to provide some useful links. If not, then God bless you in your ongoing ignorance of Wesleyan/Holiness theology.
From what I've seen of you posting verses about perfectionism, I would say that my representation of your doctrinal error is accurate.
Hebrews 11:40 and Hebrews 12:23 were verses you posted I believe (way out of context, however).
The former is speaking about the OT saints who have been made complete in Christ because of them looking forward.
The latter is also speaking of those who have died and have now been made complete.
I have studied this doctrinal error of Christian Perfectionism extensively since first noticing it about 10 years ago in the C&MA denomination. I discovered they were talking about some second work of grace (or crisis experience as you alluded to in an earlier post) after which point, one is fully sanctified (or entire sanctification as John Wesley put it). The short of it is that there is no scripture that can be used to prove that one is "entirely" sanctified.
It's the same frustration as those who say tongues is evidence of salvation. If you continue to not speak in tongues, you question your salvation. It's the same with entire sanctification or Christian perfectionism. If you continue to sin, you question your salvation, even if it's not a habitual sin. It's an endless cycle that can only lead to despair and depression. One wonders if there's a high suicide rate in such a doctrinal system.
The Reformed position emphasizes God's grace in that we are saved by grace and kept by grace. There is no grace in trying to be perfect.
_____________________________
God uses our bad will to accomplish His good will. - R.C. Sproul
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 11:54:39 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eden1234
how could any God fearing person hold to the man made man inspired doctrine of calvanism ? and then hold it up alongside the bible!
Are you God? If not your doctrine is man inspired in some fashion... Do you believe your opinion of scripture(man made man inspired doctrine) can be held up alongside the bible?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 11:59:34 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
And I think you'd be surprised at how truly unable I believe man is. I think we can both at least agree that without the Father's drawing, man can not (does not possess the ability to) come to the Father. I think John made that quite clear.
Regardless you still put all the onus on man making a choice... Sure, if God hadn't created man in the first place man couldn't.... Bottom line, you believe man saves himself... So, you in fact believe that some men are better than others...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 12:09:53 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Qtman
I probably won't either but, here goes.
NO ONE is saved because they Chose God. Salvation is only through Jesus Christ and His shed Blood.
However the procedure is as follows:
1: We have all sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
2. The Holy Spirit works convicting us of our sins.
3. We accept Christ into our lives as our Savior and Lord.
I don't think anyone can really argue those three points.
The difference comes with the third point. Do we have to accept Christ?
There is evidence that we do not. We can reject Christ and His Saving Grace. We are not forced into Salvation. Lead? Yes Forced? No
Are we saved because of this decision. Of course not. We cannot save ourselves. Only the Father can do that. But, He did instill , through the Holy Spirit, in us the ability to tell right from wrong and the ability to choose right fro wrong. He knows what we will choose but that knowledge does not mean He forced us to make that choice.
If the decision doesn't save it doesn't have to happen in order for salvation to take place... Are you will to say that one doesn't have to accept Christ in order to be saved? The above is is really nothing more than an attempt to circumvent that... Man's choice is either part of the equation that equals salvation or not... It either determines or not... It's one or the other... If it's said to be part of the "procedure" it's necessary and without it the procedure fails, hence it's no less part of the means and has important as anything God does regarding salvation according to your post.
Regarding the mention of through the Holy Spirit and "us" having the ability to tell right and wrong... Is "us" mankind, or those in Christ?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 12:18:03 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Do you really want to get into the debate on why God killed little babies? Why He killed the women and children?
Furthermore, did God already know the choices of those whom He destroyed? Is it possible that every one whom He destroyed had made their choice already?
Even furthermore, since God did kill the innocent, do they go to Heaven?
When did God kill the innocent?
quote:
Do babies go to Heaven?
Not all of them... The actions of God regarding the Flood and Jericho in that everyone outside the ark and inside the walls were treated the same regardless of age says no, babies as a group are not granted automatic salvation...
And how does your man must choose in order to be saved not conflict with the idea of all babies going to heaven?
quote:
Is there an age of accountability?
Nope....
quote:
***whistle*** Do you really want to go there? I don't.....
Of course you don't since it conflicts with your general concept of salvation... Now you have a group you seem to believe is automatically saved...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 12:26:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
Well then what made God choose you, Reba? In your eyes, since you are completely unable to choose either way, and you just woke up one morning mystically changed, then in your eyes isn't that luck? I mean, since you couldn't do anything about it, then why did God choose you, and in mankind's perspective, why aren't you lucky you received something that the next person did not?
Because God's purpose according to His good pleasure isn't luck... It's God's decree... Man's perception of it is luck but when you understand that God actually has a purpose beyond letting the inmates run the asylum you know it's about His perfect will... What made Reba choose God, was God... If not, one ends up simply glorify oneself with their I made the right choice and God blessed me for it... When in fact it's really God blessed me therefore I chose Him...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 12:26:15 PM
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Reba
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quote:
.....p.s. this post is dripping with sarcasm and snarkiness.
Good time for SIH to show up! 
Nice to see ya son!
_____________________________
Chapter and verse are posted so all may look up the context.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 12:30:11 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
If Calvinism were true, they are all lucky! Since you've done absolutely nothing, and since God drags you, then the day you woke up mystically changed you were lucky. Of course there is no such thing as luck in God's eyes...but in your own perspective, what made Him choose you? Couldn't he have just as well left you in your inability and unwillingness, not even giving you the capability to be willing? In man's perspective, aren't you just lucky?
Yes, there is no such thing as luck in God's eye... There is only purpose... He chose the younger over the older with a purpose... He made the choice neither both having done good or bad with a purpose... To demonstrate election...
Yes, man will declare it luck... Those who are of God will give thanks and understand that mercy is truly unmerited favor...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: "Original Sin" is not found in the Bible! - 11/3/2009 12:42:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ChuckFinney
· Babies are born spiritually alive (not spiritually dead).
· Babies are accountable when they know how to refuse evil and choose good.
· When children reach the age of accountability and choose to sin, they become separated from God (Spiritually Dead).
So man is born alive in the Spirit, dies upon sin at some never mentioned age and hopefully later is born spiritually again?
Jesus was pretty clear the first birth didn't merit man anything... He stressed that point... You equating the first birth with the second one that is said to be need to see the Kingdom... Jesus nor the bible ever says blessed are those who die before they reach a certain age...
quote:
· Do you really believe that babies are born with sinful natures and guilty of Adam's sin? If so, then it follows that babies go to hell when they die?
Only if one believes that salvation lies in the hand of man... Since it does in fact reside with God, no one is out of His reach... Even babies if He so chooses to save them....
quote:
· If sin nature is passed down from Adam, how is it passed down? Through the body? The blood? The spirit?
· Jesus was a man and tempted in all ways and yet he was without sin. If "Original Sin" is true, then Jesus was born with a sinful nature and inherited Adam's sin just like the rest of us.
Did Jesus have an earthly father?
quote:
Any questions?
Yes.. Age of accountability verse... oh.. And the one that states man is born alive in the Spirit apart from John the Baptist....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 12:54:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: holyrokker
There is nothing in the passage to indicate that people are born with evil hearts.
If man is born with a good heart that some folks believe eventually will choose God why the need for God to remove and replace it? Certainly a good heart that has the means to discern right from wrong and make the ultimate choice of God doesn't need to be replaced...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 12:58:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
He is not bound by the age of a person.
But He is bound by His promises and Nature.
Yet Joshua put babies to the sword just like the adults... Animals slept warm and dry in the ark while babies drowned...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 1:02:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Reba, your comment underscores why I will be leaving this thread again. I posted a response solely for huangshan and you twisted it into some snide remark about Bible study. If you can find either term C or A in Scripture then please cite the passage for huangshan's benefit. Otherwise you would do well to review some articles on the history of the Remonstrance so you can be better informed than your "calvy" brethren who display their ignorance regularly on this thread!
Sure, and this part of your post "Thus the underlying basis of Calvinism is faulty at best and heretical at worst." was simply for huangshan's benefit. Who are you kidding?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 1:05:43 PM
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drmark
Posts: 4632
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quote:
Good time for SIH to show up! Good time for me to leave! 
Bye all, I'm sure I will catch some of you on another Theology thread in the future.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 1:12:36 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaranWanderer
btw, I used to post in here more frequently, but got tired of having my views and points so easily "dismissed" by the Reformed crowd.
So it's in your objective point of view that this is a one way street? And could it have it been your points were the reason they were "dismmised?"
quote:
I think every now and then there's a fruitful exchange, but more often than not, people here simply end up laughing at each other's POV's, while declaring themselves as the most qualified and objective owners and proclaimers of "the truth". That said, my views tend to align more closely with those of SamsonUSA and Evry1.
Do you include yourself and those you agree with?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/3/2009 1:19:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 6400
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Truth Project
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
No, it does not!
Yes it does... Remove man's actions from your model of salvation and there is no salvation...
quote:
And this is why I really don't need to waste my time on this thread with people who have little comprehension of God's grace and man's ability to respond to It. Have a nice day, one and all. Perhaps I will be back again, if it's fore-ordained...
It must have been fore-ordained since you do in fact return...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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