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[Poll]
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Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong
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| TRUE - Christians have no business ever drinking alcohol |
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| FALSE - Cristians having an occasional glass of wine is not sinful |
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Total Votes : 120
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(last vote on : 10/5/2008 1:40:56 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:04:58 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
While we are to please our neighbours we aren't to do it at the cost of dismissing the Holy Spirit and His convictions upon us.
Let's get back to the OP because I see this alot with "drinking". LOL I think too many people LOVE that too much and have gone too far overboard in their "right" to drink. (probably because they come from a place where they were told drinking was a sin - now they go to the other extreme and some I think believe it makes them a "cool Christian" to drink)
Do you believe the OP is saying the Holy Spirit convicts her to drink?
I am not under a place to assume anything of anyone else's convictions but for myself I am NOT convicted not to drink.
I also don't think I or anyone else thinking like me are "overboard in our 'right' to drink". I merely don't think it's anyone's place to "forbid" me from doing something based on her own personal convictions if they don't go against scripture.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:06:12 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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According to scripture the "goal" is not to appease them but to build them up. That's why we lay down our rights. To build them up.
Is there a place to draw the line? Yes.
But first show you are mature enough yourslef to lay down your right for their sake. Then your maturity will shine like the Son.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:08:20 PM
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LCannon
Posts: 1254
Joined: 2/22/2007
From: Lebanon, OR
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Probably Hayseed's on the right path. Romans 14:1-"The notion of[this gifting]isn’t to make distinctions in narrow judgments but to bring the gifts of faith together in obedience. 2 One’s judgment can eat all things in freedom yet some regard such freedom as weakness so the weak eat vegetables only. 3 Neither boldness or frailty are regarded with contempt since the action isn’t the obedience for God has accepted both of them. 4 What business is it of yours since it’s not your servant to order about? Is it not His Master’s responsibility whether he stands or falls for the Lord’s discipline will make him stand or fall..."
It's interesting Paul's notion of maturity isn't narrowness or license but the expansiveness of the liberty of obedience to conduct oneself appropriately in the setting we find ourselves.
_____________________________
"It may be that when the angels go about their task of praising God they play
only Bach. I am sure, however, that when they are together en famille they
play Mozart and then too our dear Lord listens with special pleasure."(Karl Barth)
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:09:28 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 571
Joined: 4/15/2006
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So by catering to their ignorance or even downright pettiness is "building them up"?
Sounds more like a spirit of timidity than of the power and freedom Christ gave us.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:10:53 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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You get more flies with honey than with vinegar. 
quote:
It's interesting Paul's notion of maturity isn't narrowness or license but the expansiveness of the liberty of obedience to conduct oneself appropriately in the setting we find ourselves.
That's what I understand it to be saying. Keep the main thing the main thing. Don't let your "liberty" stand in the way of doing the right thing.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:12:52 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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This issue does not end with alcohol. dining in resturaunts that serve alcohol is seen as sin my many in my old church. Should I only eat out at Burger king?
The kindest thing to do is let the person know they are scripturally wrong.
show them they are taking issue with a non issue.
I happen to find it offensive that those who are teetotallers make out all people who drink alcohol as being drunks. Yet it certainly gets done here.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:15:05 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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I think so as well. To me, I see Paul advocating a fine balance. On the one hand, don't flaunt your freedom. Teach the weaker brother to allow him to grow. On the other hand, don't create disunity over the issue. Between those two goal posts, I think there's a fair amount of room to maneuver. P31W has a possible solution - a temporary abstinence to demonstrate some grace and give someone time to grow. Blue also has a possible solution - enjoy the priviledge privately. Hayseed is also correct in that it just isn't workable for our collective behavior to be geared to the lowest common denominator. That's just deferring the problem, not addressing it.
I think I could defend all three solutions as biblical, and all three could be appropriate in different circumstances.
The only solution that I don't think I can defend biblically is a blind caving in on such issues to the weaker brother without some plan to educate and inform. That's conflict avoidance. The bible teaches us to RESOLVE conflicts, not simply to avoid and ignore them.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:16:43 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
This issue does not end with alcohol. dining in resturaunts that serve alcohol is seen as sin my many in my old church. Should I only eat out at Burger king?
Yes if those are people whom you are trying to help grow in the Lord.
quote:
The kindest thing to do is let the person know they are scripturally wrong.
show them they are taking issue with a non issue.
I agree. But like I said before. If you want them to listen to you then you lay down your liberty for a while so that they can "hear you".
quote:
I happen to find it offensive that those who are teetotallers make out all people who drink alcohol as being drunks. Yet it certainly gets done here.
I have not seen anyone say that.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:17:56 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.
quote:
It's interesting Paul's notion of maturity isn't narrowness or license but the expansiveness of the liberty of obedience to conduct oneself appropriately in the setting we find ourselves.
That's what I understand it to be saying. Keep the main thing the main thing. Don't let your "liberty" stand in the way of doing the right thing.
But I think it's also saying that we don't need to be artificially and increasingly constrained by erroneous thinking. On the one hand, I can't hold my own liberty in such high regard that it impinges on another's conscience. On the other, I can't hold my own liberty purchased so dearly by Christ in such low regard that I'm willing to sacrifice it needlessly.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:18:53 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I think so as well. To me, I see Paul advocating a fine balance. On the one hand, don't flaunt your freedom. Teach the weaker brother to allow him to grow. On the other hand, don't create disunity over the issue. Between those two goal posts, I think there's a fair amount of room to maneuver. P31W has a possible solution - a temporary abstinence to demonstrate some grace and give someone time to grow. Blue also has a possible solution - enjoy the priviledge privately. Hayseed is also correct in that it just isn't workable for our collective behavior to be geared to the lowest common denominator. That's just deferring the problem, not addressing it.
I think I could defend all three solutions as biblical, and all three could be appropriate in different circumstances.
The only solution that I don't think I can defend biblically is a blind caving in on such issues to the weaker brother without some plan to educate and inform. That's conflict avoidance. The bible teaches us to RESOLVE conflicts, not simply to avoid and ignore them.
GroupW,
Anyone ever tell you that you have the gift of discernment? That you are a peacemaker?
If not - well you have now. 
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:19:41 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
I have not seen anyone say that.
Not in this thread, thankfully. In most of the others, someone gets a bee in their britches over the issue ad goes directly there without passing go & collecting their $200.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:20:45 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I think so as well. To me, I see Paul advocating a fine balance. On the one hand, don't flaunt your freedom. Teach the weaker brother to allow him to grow. On the other hand, don't create disunity over the issue. Between those two goal posts, I think there's a fair amount of room to maneuver. P31W has a possible solution - a temporary abstinence to demonstrate some grace and give someone time to grow. Blue also has a possible solution - enjoy the priviledge privately. Hayseed is also correct in that it just isn't workable for our collective behavior to be geared to the lowest common denominator. That's just deferring the problem, not addressing it.
I think I could defend all three solutions as biblical, and all three could be appropriate in different circumstances.
The only solution that I don't think I can defend biblically is a blind caving in on such issues to the weaker brother without some plan to educate and inform. That's conflict avoidance. The bible teaches us to RESOLVE conflicts, not simply to avoid and ignore them.
GroupW,
Anyone ever tell you that you have the gift of discernment? That you are a peacemaker?
If not - well you have now.
Well, thanks! I've appreciated some of your wisdom in the past as well.
Edit: FYI - it's no virtue. I just have a serious case of middle child syndrome of a magnitude seldom seen on this green earth.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:20:59 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
But I think it's also saying that we don't need to be artificially and increasingly constrained by erroneous thinking. On the one hand, I can't hold my own liberty in such high regard that it impinges on another's conscience. On the other, I can't hold my own liberty purchased so dearly by Christ in such low regard that I'm willing to sacrifice it needlessly.
Completely agree. I don't believe that helps anyone!!! Not only sacrifice my own freedom but the individual I am trying to help build up. They need to know that freedom for themselves in certain areas and how to "discern" what is right and wrong for them in those gray areas.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:24:29 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
This particular scenario is just extreme.
Wes,
I am not sure about that. We don't really know how this person was raised to believe was right and wrong. I am sure the OP if she desires to take some time can find out and then know how to best help build up that person. It appears that more people than I realize grew up being taught that "drinking is a sin". I was never exposed to that until I was in college even though I come from a Baptist Chruch that obstains from drinking. We do that because of Romans 14. I was one of the very fortunate ones who was taught scripture properly and had it properly applied in our home.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:28:37 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
Status: offline
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Another point that comes up is hiding something you do, so others won't know and get their dentures full of gravel. Something just smacks of hypocrasy with the whole thing.
on another note: We have made disuptable issues out of things there should not be dispute about. In the united States, alcohol is one of them.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:28:49 PM
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Hayseed
Posts: 571
Joined: 4/15/2006
Status: offline
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Many times I wouldn't say that I'm "more mature" than those that are "offended" by things. In many cases they're actually more mature than me and should act it. Many people choose ignorance and immaturity because it gives them power without the responsibility and accountability.
Bottom line: They need to be called on the carpet by being confronted with the truth and held accountable to it.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:35:39 PM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
We have made disuptable issues out of things there should not be dispute about. In the united States, alcohol is one of them.
I agree with that completely!!!!!!
I wonder what it is in "other countries" they have made into a disputed matter?
quote:
Another point that comes up is hiding something you do, so others won't know and get their dentures full of gravel. Something just smacks of hypocrasy with the whole thing.
Yes I agree as well. That's why I say "just give it up for a while" so that you can address the problem. I don't believe we need to turn this into the big deal that it often turns into.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:36:25 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Another point that comes up is hiding something you do, so others won't know and get their dentures full of gravel. Something just smacks of hypocrasy with the whole thing.
on another note: We have made disuptable issues out of things there should not be dispute about. In the united States, alcohol is one of them.
On the first one - it would feel hypocritical to me if I actually thought it were wrong and I was hiding it to avoid discovery. If I just choose to enjoy the privilege privately to avoid the fuss, is it still hypocrisy?
For a while, when my in-laws came to town I'd clear the beer from the fridge in order to avoid having an argument that I knew noone would win. Now that they know me a bit better, I feel a bit more freedom to reveal more personal information about my habits. That didn't feel too hypocritical. Sometimes it's just "information management".
On the second one - absolutely!
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/13/2008 2:39:28 PM
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Dred
Posts: 231
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
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I once thought that, in the spirit of Romans 14, I should pretty much not drink at all. At some point it occurred to me that those who say that any and all drinking of alcoholic beverages is sin are saying that something Jesus very clearly did is a sin. And, yes, it should be very clear to anyone halfway reasonable and not profoundly ignorant on this subject that He did drink wine. There was no refrigeration or pasteurization in that society. You certainly can't expect to carry fresh grape juice around in leather bags without disastrous results--even new wine skins will break if primary fermentation is not past.
I've known some very fine Christians who consider any drinking of alcohol to be a sin. I wouldn't wish to offend those any more than necessary, but how much should we humor someone who states that something Jesus clearly did is a sin? How much respect are we showing them if we help them continue to do so?
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"We count any belief in Him, even the smallest belief, better than any belief about Him." --from Robert Falconer, by George MacDonald
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