RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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[Poll]
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Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?
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| Maybe/Not Sure |
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Total Votes : 144
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(last vote on : 11/15/2009 2:43:45 PM)
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/28/2009 7:44:50 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Greetings from Taipei, Taiwan! On my way to Jakarta Indonesia....got a layover.....been on a plane for the last 20 hrs!
Anyways....
Conditions did not change at Pentecost.
Conditions changed when the New Covenant started when Jesus died.
John's baptism was for forgiveness of sins however it did not give the indwelling Holy Spirit.
So? The baptism for the purpose of forgiveness of sins is your view, right? I find your explanation irrelevant.
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/28/2009 9:28:09 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
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Look at it this way. "Baptism for the forgiveness of sin" is mentioned in the gospels and in Acts 2:38. If the term "for the forgiveness of sins" refers to the act of being saved from via baptism in Acts, doesn't it mean the same thing in the gospels? But there is the idea that it didn't apply to the thief on the cross because it was prior to Jesus death and resurrection. I see an inconsistency.
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/28/2009 10:37:51 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
No. God's free gift is FREE. All one has to do to be saved is to acknowledge God and accept Yeshua's salvation through grace. Grace cancels works. One cannot be assured salvation through works.
Indeed, God's free gift is free. However, one has to do more than acknowledge God and accept salvation through grace. Yes, grace dos cancel works. True, one cannot be assured of salvation through works.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/28/2009 10:43:56 PM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
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quote:
John's baptism was for forgiveness of sins however it did not give the indwelling Holy Spirit.
This is true :-) Yeshua said we "must be born again".
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/28/2009 10:52:51 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Would you like to document that the conditions changed at Pentecost? That would mean, I suppose, that none of the conditions for salvation preached by John the Baptist applied then?
God instituted baptism as a new condition for salvation in the New Testament era, in addition to what was required in pre-Christian times (viz., faith and repentance). Why should this be so? It is my contention that the answer can be found in Matthew 28:19-20 which reveals that Christian baptism is baptism into the name of the Trinity. This did not actually occur in practice until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. John's baptism was indeed a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, but the gift of the Holy Spirit was not given until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
We are living in an age marked by the actual accomplishment of the works of redemption and a fuller revelation of the Trinitarian nature of God. This transition is so radical that not only is a new condition added, but even the old conditions have been changed.
For example, the faith that sufficed for Old Testament saints is not the same as that required for salvation today. In the Old Testament anyone who believed and surrendered to the exclusive Lordship of the God of Israel and trusted in His promise of mercy was accepted by God. Even Gentiles were included in this (viz., the Ninevites in Jonah's time (Jonah 3:10) and Cornelius even before he knew Christ (Acts 10:1-2).
However, once the facts of the Gospel are known, even the most devout Old Testament believer was faced with a choice: either accept the fuller revelation of the God of Israel, or be transferred to the ranks of unbelievers. A person could be saved one moment by his faith in the God he knew from the Old Covenant revelation, and be lost the next moment for refusing to accept Jesus as the redeeming presence and fuller revelation of this same God.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/28/2009 10:55:39 PM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
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quote:
Indeed, God's free gift is free. However, one has to do more than acknowledge God and accept salvation through grace.
No. Yeshua said, "BELIEVE ON ME and YOU SHALL BE SAVED." That is salvation through grace. Yeshua did not say, "Believe on me and then do this, and this, and this to prove you are worthy of salvation". There is only one way to gain salvation; BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE SON OF GOD. Then follow Him. Everything else will then fall into place ... IF you have the time to get baptized, take communion, witness, ect. However, should a person wait until the 11th hour to turn their life over to God, they will still be "just as saved" as the person who has had the time to do the outward works. Works are because of salvation … salvation is not because of works. Salvation is free; it does not depend on what one does to prove it. Salvation is faith – faith does not need to be proven: if one must prove their faith … they don’t have it. When we accept Yeshua as Lord of our lives, WE ARE ASSURED OF OUR SALVATION. It’s that simple …
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/28/2009 11:11:55 PM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
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God instituted baptism as a new condition for salvation in the New Testament era, in addition to what was required in pre-Christian times (viz., faith and repentance). Why should this be so? It is my contention that the answer can be found in Matthew 28:19-20 which reveals that Christian baptism is baptism into the name of the Trinity. This did not actually occur in practice until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. John's baptism was indeed a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, but the gift of the Holy Spirit was not given until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
We are living in an age marked by the actual accomplishment of the works of redemption and a fuller revelation of the Trinitarian nature of God. This transition is so radical that not only is a new condition added, but even the old conditions have been changed.
For example, the faith that sufficed for Old Testament saints is not the same as that required for salvation today. In the Old Testament anyone who believed and surrendered to the exclusive Lordship of the God of Israel and trusted in His promise of mercy was accepted by God. Even Gentiles were included in this (viz., the Ninevites in Jonah's time (Jonah 3:10) and Cornelius even before he knew Christ (Acts 10:1-2).
However, once the facts of the Gospel are known, even the most devout Old Testament believer was faced with a choice: either accept the fuller revelation of the God of Israel, or be transferred to the ranks of unbelievers. A person could be saved one moment by his faith in the God he knew from the Old Covenant revelation, and be lost the next moment for refusing to accept Jesus as the redeeming presence and fuller revelation of this same God.
Baptism is not new to those who served God. It is an ancient Jewish custom among the Priesthood – the difference during the Church Age is that we no longer need mediators: Yeshua is our Advocate! The water baptism is to wash the filth of the world off us and to purify our lives (if we have time before we die); The Pentecost baptism is for the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God (to be born-again) – it is for consecration and power to live boldly for God.
The {old conditions} have not been changed … they have been fulfilled! The Old spoke of the New and the New mirrors the old: they are the same thing!
Yeshua was the EMBODIMENT OF GOD ON EARTH. No one was ever “lost” that was saved – only those who refused to acknowledge God were lost … Yeshua IS God: those that were lost were already lost because they did not believe in the first place, else they would have recognized the Messiah for WHO HE WAS. It was no different then, than it is today: people must have faith, chose to heed the call of God, and then follow Him - forsaking all else. BTW, there were many Rabbis that believed in Yeshua – Niccodemus (sp?) was but one.
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 12:11:44 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
No. Yeshua said, "BELIEVE ON ME and YOU SHALL BE SAVED."
Jesus may have said that but He also said, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19) and "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Mark 16:16)
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 12:14:08 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
The Pentecost baptism is for the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God (to be born-again) – it is for consecration and power to live boldly for God.
I agree with this sentence completely. That's the one baptism in the Christian's experience.
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greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 4:49:43 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Greetings from Taipei, Taiwan! On my way to Jakarta Indonesia....got a layover.....been on a plane for the last 20 hrs!
Anyways....
Conditions did not change at Pentecost.
Conditions changed when the New Covenant started when Jesus died.
John's baptism was for forgiveness of sins however it did not give the indwelling Holy Spirit.
So? The baptism for the purpose of forgiveness of sins is your view, right? I find your explanation irrelevant.
Not just my view, that is explicitly what the Bible says!
Luke 3:2-4 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
John's baptism was for forgiveness of sins. It just didn't confer the Holy Spirit because IT had not been given yet.
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 4:54:23 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
quote:
Indeed, God's free gift is free. However, one has to do more than acknowledge God and accept salvation through grace.
No. Yeshua said, "BELIEVE ON ME and YOU SHALL BE SAVED." That is salvation through grace. Yeshua did not say, "Believe on me and then do this, and this, and this to prove you are worthy of salvation". There is only one way to gain salvation; BELIEVE YESHUA IS THE SON OF GOD. Then follow Him. Everything else will then fall into place ... IF you have the time to get baptized, take communion, witness, ect. However, should a person wait until the 11th hour to turn their life over to God, they will still be "just as saved" as the person who has had the time to do the outward works. Works are because of salvation … salvation is not because of works. Salvation is free; it does not depend on what one does to prove it. Salvation is faith – faith does not need to be proven: if one must prove their faith … they don’t have it. When we accept Yeshua as Lord of our lives, WE ARE ASSURED OF OUR SALVATION. It’s that simple …
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Matthew7:21-23 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
Belief alone will not save you.
You cannot even receive the Holy Spirit unless you obey.
Acts 5:32 teaches this!
You cannot be saved unless you obey! Hebrews 5:9
You are not a disciple of Jesus and will not be set free unless you obey Him. John 8:31-32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 5:31:08 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
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quote:
Belief alone will not save you.
You cannot even receive the Holy Spirit unless you obey.
Acts 5:32 teaches this!
You cannot be saved unless you obey! Hebrews 5:9
You are not a disciple of Jesus and will not be set free unless you obey Him. John 8:31-32
This is a very old argument that started with the religious leaders of ancient days past that sought to kill Yeshua because they, too were hung up on outward works.
Works will not save anyone. I have already stated that IF POSSIBLE water baptism is warranted ... however, IF NOT POSSIBLE (such as an 11th hour acknowledgement of God and Yeshua's saving grace), it is not necessary as FAITH IS SALVATION (Romans 10:9 - "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Yeshua from the dead, thou shalt be saved". Also Acts 2:21; Romans 10:13; 1 Corinthians 1:21, 15:2; 2 Timothy 3:15). Faith in Yeshua is obedience to God, and obedience can only come through the teachings of the Holy Spirit, which a person receives when they accept Yeshua as Lord and Savior (aka born-again). A disciple of Yeshua is someone who acknowledges Yeshua as Lord and Savior. Salvation is not contingent on baptism, as we know from death-bed conversions. Are you stating that these people are not saved and will never enter into the rest promised them by Yeshua if they have faith that He is the risen Lord and Messiah? Are you stating that Yeshua is a liar? YESHUA SAID: "Believe on the Lord Yeshua, and YOU SHALL BE SAVED." There are no "extra conditions". Salvation is a free gift to those who seek it. Gifts are given because of love, not as a reward. There is NO ONE deserving of Salvation: GOD GIVES IT FREELY to those who ask for it. "For God so loved the world, that he sent His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).
Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God".
Yeshua said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (John 5:24).
Romans 8:1 - "There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Yeshua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."
I have been saved and water baptized since 1967 and have walked with the Lord ... in the Spirit ... since 1978. I have been assured of my salvation by the Lord Himself :-) Judgmental attitudes do not offend me; I know where I stand in Yeshua, and what I say is truth.
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
< Message edited by sureclarity -- 10/29/2009 5:41:10 AM >
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 6:05:11 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
quote:
Belief alone will not save you.
You cannot even receive the Holy Spirit unless you obey.
Acts 5:32 teaches this!
You cannot be saved unless you obey! Hebrews 5:9
You are not a disciple of Jesus and will not be set free unless you obey Him. John 8:31-32
This is a very old argument that started with the religious leaders of ancient days past that sought to kill Yeshua because they, too were hung up on outward works.
Works will not save anyone.
Everyone knows that works will not save anyone!
We are not talking about works.....we are talking about baptism.
Baptism is commanded by God. If we faithfully obey God then we are not working but expressing our faith through obedience.
< Message edited by jjbird -- 10/29/2009 7:11:39 AM >
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 6:53:08 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
God instituted baptism as a new condition for salvation in the New Testament era, in addition to what was required in pre-Christian times (viz., faith and repentance). Why should this be so? It is my contention that the answer can be found in Matthew 28:19-20 which reveals that Christian baptism is baptism into the name of the Trinity. This did not actually occur in practice until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. John's baptism was indeed a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, but the gift of the Holy Spirit was not given until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
We are living in an age marked by the actual accomplishment of the works of redemption and a fuller revelation of the Trinitarian nature of God. This transition is so radical that not only is a new condition added, but even the old conditions have been changed.
For example, the faith that sufficed for Old Testament saints is not the same as that required for salvation today. In the Old Testament anyone who believed and surrendered to the exclusive Lordship of the God of Israel and trusted in His promise of mercy was accepted by God. Even Gentiles were included in this (viz., the Ninevites in Jonah's time (Jonah 3:10) and Cornelius even before he knew Christ (Acts 10:1-2).
However, once the facts of the Gospel are known, even the most devout Old Testament believer was faced with a choice: either accept the fuller revelation of the God of Israel, or be transferred to the ranks of unbelievers. A person could be saved one moment by his faith in the God he knew from the Old Covenant revelation, and be lost the next moment for refusing to accept Jesus as the redeeming presence and fuller revelation of this same God.
So Jesus didn't mean baptism was necessary for salvation in John 3:5 or did He?
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 7:05:54 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/20/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
So Jesus didn't mean baptism was necessary for salvation in John 3:5 or did He?
Of course he meant it.......no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again.
Just like he meant it in Mark 16:16 and Matthew 28:18-20
< Message edited by jjbird -- 10/29/2009 7:12:34 AM >
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 7:14:37 AM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
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quote:
Everyone knows that works will not save anyone!
We are not talking about works.....we are talking about baptism.
Baptism is commanded by God. If we faithfully obey God then we are not working but expressing our faith through obedience.
I am not going to argue with you. I know what the Scriptures say about Salvation, and I have given Scriptural references in the last post, and posted several times that state clearly what God considers necessary for salvation; and I have given Scriptures that Yeshua spoke Himself concerning the saving grace of faith. If you are stating that the outward WORK OF BAPTISM is the ONLY WAY to be saved, and is THE SEAL of salvation, then you are calling God a liar. Let it be on your own head ...
~sureclarity
http://therealjesus-sureclarity.blogspot.com/
http://mwhosit.livejournal.com/
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 7:28:12 AM
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jjbird
Posts: 504
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
(Romans 10:9 - "If thou shalt confess with thy mouth and believe in thine heart that God hath raised Yeshua from the dead, thou shalt be saved".
Why would Paul be writing to Christians(people already saved) and telling them how to initially become saved?
How does that fit the context?
Can you explain the context of Romans 10?
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 7:45:27 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Wouldn't it means, also, that your interpretation of John 3:5 didn't apply at the time Jesus said it?
and
quote:
So Jesus didn't mean baptism was necessary for salvation in John 3:5 or did He?
Yes, he was talking about baptism in John 3:5. You are correct, though, that it didn't apply at the time Jesus said it. Jesus spoke of other things that didn't apply at the time he said them too. His victorious resurrection, for example, in John 2:19-22. His comment about the living water in John 7:37-39 refers to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Some think that His speaking of eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:53ff) has to do with the Lord's Supper. So, baptism cannot be excluded from John 3:5 simply because it didn't apply when Jesus said it. In fact even being "born of the Spirit" in John 3:5 didn't apply yet, since regeneration via the indwelling Holy Spirit didn't start until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 7:50:40 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
If you are stating that the outward WORK OF BAPTISM is the ONLY WAY to be saved, and is THE SEAL of salvation, then you are calling God a liar. Let it be on your own head ...
Of course baptism is not all that's required to be saved. Besides, it's not what we do in baptism that saves us. It's what God does. So, in that sense baptism is not a work of ours, but a work of God. There are those, though, who teach that baptism is not necessary, and yet every one of them I've spoken to is baptized themselves.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 5:01:02 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Yes, he was talking about baptism in John 3:5. You are correct, though, that it didn't apply at the time Jesus said it. Jesus spoke of other things that didn't apply at the time he said them too. His victorious resurrection, for example, in John 2:19-22. His comment about the living water in John 7:37-39 refers to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Some think that His speaking of eating His flesh and drinking His blood (John 6:53ff) has to do with the Lord's Supper. So, baptism cannot be excluded from John 3:5 simply because it didn't apply when Jesus said it. In fact even being "born of the Spirit" in John 3:5 didn't apply yet, since regeneration via the indwelling Holy Spirit didn't start until the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
Uh. Jesus did speak of His resurrection in the future tense and the outpouring of the HS in the future tense. John's narrative, for example, in John 7 expressly places the coming of the HS as something future. I don't see the equivalent for salvation.
Take a look at John 3 and tell me where, in context, there is anything whatsoever indicating that the conditions and the promised result were then still future. Take the thief on the cross, for example. Jesus said "this day..." In John 3:16 "Whosoever...have eternal life..." Both are present tense. I see no reason to interpret these as future conditions that changed. In Peter's sermon (if you interpret it that way, I don't), nothing suggests he is laying out new conditions for salvation. If so, where? More eisegesis?
_____________________________
Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 5:15:07 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1583
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Jesus did speak of His resurrection in the future tense and the outpouring of the HS in the future tense.
I don't understand. First you say Jesus did speak of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as a future event (see above), then you turn around and ask me to show you where, in John 3, He spoke of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as a future event (see below).
quote:
Take a look at John 3 and tell me where, in context, there is anything whatsoever indicating that the conditions and the promised result were then still future.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
<===avatar is US soldiers in Iraq at sunset
You are to rise in the presence of the elderly and honor the old. -- Leviticus 19:32
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 5:58:43 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1590
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Jesus did speak of His resurrection in the future tense and the outpouring of the HS in the future tense.
I don't understand. First you say Jesus did speak of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as a future event (see above), then you turn around and ask me to show you where, in John 3, He spoke of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as a future event (see below).
quote:
Take a look at John 3 and tell me where, in context, there is anything whatsoever indicating that the conditions and the promised result were then still future.
My post was written hastily. I am sorry if the writing was unclearly written. I didn't ask you where in John 3, the outpouring of the HS was spoken as future. In reference to John 3, I was speaking of John 3:5. Apparently, you believe that John 3:5 is a reference to baptism and salvation, right?
In your post #994, you replied to me, quoting me and you said said:
quote:
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So Jesus didn't mean baptism was necessary for salvation in John 3:5 or did He?
Yes, he was talking about baptism in John 3:5.
So we have a contextual exchange about John 3, more specifically John 3:5 being about salvation. My reply was in #996.
Where do you find that whatever leads to salvation without any indication that there is a separable distinction being spoken of? If Jesus spoke of salvation in present tense (clearly) but the baptism part didn't apply until later? Where do you find that in John 3? Whatever Jesus meant, it seems to me that it all applied then. If you think some part of John 3 was future, where does John's narrative in chapter 3 tell us that?
Anyway, regarding of the coming of the HS: The coming of the HS was yet (at that time) future, right? Yet, I contend that whatever Jesus intended to convey about the conditions for salvation, salvation was a then present possession of whoever fulfilled the conditions. In which case, I believe it is faith alone. Salvation was spoken of using present tense verbs and the coming of the HS was some sort of imperfect past. Technically, I don't know the essential grammatical name.
"Whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life..." (John 3:16). That's present tense right?
But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given..." (John 7:39)
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 10/29/2009 6:09:48 PM >
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Larry
"Clarity before agreement." Dennis Prager
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 9:40:24 PM
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jjbird
Posts: 504
Joined: 5/20/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
Uh. Jesus did speak of His resurrection in the future tense and the outpouring of the HS in the future tense. John's narrative, for example, in John 7 expressly places the coming of the HS as something future. I don't see the equivalent for salvation.
Take a look at John 3 and tell me where, in context, there is anything whatsoever indicating that the conditions and the promised result were then still future.
It really is besides the point.....Jesus says you must be baptized.....water and Spirit!
The context of John 3 is not how to become saved but where salvation comes from. It comes from God! From above!
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Take the thief on the cross, for example. Jesus said "this day..." In John 3:16 "Whosoever...have eternal life..." Both are present tense.
You must remember that salvation has three aspects to it.
Past, present & future.
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I see no reason to interpret these as future conditions that changed. In Peter's sermon (if you interpret it that way, I don't), nothing suggests he is laying out new conditions for salvation. If so, where? More eisegesis?
The grounds for salvation did not change what so ever from the OT to the NT.
However what has changed was that you no longer had to obey the Law of Moses to partake in God's Messianic blessings and covenantal relationship
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RE: Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order... - 10/29/2009 9:43:13 PM
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sureclarity
Posts: 57
Joined: 10/24/2009
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sureclarity
If you are stating that the outward WORK OF BAPTISM is the ONLY WAY to be saved, and is THE SEAL of salvation, then you are calling God a liar. Let it be on your own head ...
Of course baptism is not all that's required to be saved. Besides, it's not what we do in baptism that saves us. It's what God does. So, in that sense baptism is not a work of ours, but a work of God. There are those, though, who teach that baptism is not necessary, and yet every one of them I've spoken to is baptized themselves.
The question is Do you believe that we have to be baptized in order to go to heaven?, and the answer is no.
I was baptized in a lake in Minnesota when I was 8 years old – I understood totally what was happening and why – obviously it was not an 11th hour situation, and I was not looking at the face of God as my life was leaving my body. However, HAD IT BEEN AND THERE WAS NO TIME TO RUSH ME TO THE LAKE TO BE DIPPED, my soul would have been just as saved as it is now.
Baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation – it is WORK OF OBEDIENCE: God does not need the work of baptism to save souls – baptism is for man’s benefit, not God’s. Salvation does not hinge on works. You can stand me up at the gates of hell (no doubt that is the intention of the reply posted), and I won’t back down :-)
God’s Word is truth, it stands on it’s own; God is not a man that He should lie … I follow Yeshua, I obey God, I back up what I say to other’s with the Word of God; if that does not sit well with them, they need to find out why. I am secure in what I know because it is what God has revealed to me. Period.
< Message edited by sureclarity -- 10/29/2009 9:50:46 PM >
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