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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/16/2009 6:44:49 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Okay, thanks for the reprimand. Apparently I was wrong on my reading of this thread's comments on Eph 2:8, but I have read in the past those who argue that faith is the gift referred to, not salvation. And that is exegetically incorrect.
We may not agree on much, drmark, but on this we do agree. Salvation is certainly the gift referred to in Ephesians 2:8-9 and not faith.
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greatdivide46
For who can eat and who can enjoy life apart from Him?. -- Ecclesiastes 2:25 (HCSB)
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/16/2009 11:27:24 PM
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drmark
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Oh gd46, we agree on much more than you think! 
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/17/2009 5:48:14 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
Well is it grace alone or faith alone? Which one? If it is by grace alone then salvation is not by faith. If it is faith alone then salvation is not by grace. Which is it?
In the world of theology this is how it is usually said. We are saved by grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, while we are still sinners.
Well which one is it? Grace, Faith or Christ.
You just contradicted yourself. If it is grace alone then that will rule out all the rest. If it is faith alone then that rules out all the rest. If it is Christ alone that also once again rules out all the rest!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/17/2009 5:51:32 PM
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drmark
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I think Frankman left out some prepositions - by grace, through faith, in Christ. All three are essential to salvation, just different relationships to it and each other.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/17/2009 6:30:54 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I think Frankman left out some prepositions - by grace, through faith, in Christ. All three are essential to salvation, just different relationships to it and each other.
Yeah.....left out on purpose. I have seen his exact statement made by many others on several different forums. It is a tradition of false doctrine.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/18/2009 8:25:43 AM
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drmark
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quote:
It is a tradition of false doctrine. Excuse me? If you do not believe that salvation is produced by grace, through having faith in the Only Source of salvation, then you are the one dabbling in false doctrine, jj!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 12:21:14 AM
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Intrepidus
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quote:
ORIGINAL: copybingo
From my original question, having to do with reformed theology, it seems that the finality of the cross is not the final step in the finished work of God in salvation. It seems the Holy Spirit must enable some to have the desire to believe while leaving those not elected to have the scales over their eyes left in place. Those enabled by the Holy Spirit to believe do not resist and are, therefore, saved. Hence, their concept of "irresistable grace". This is what I meant.
Copybingo,
I will say this much: You understand Reformed theology far better than the vast majority of its detractors. There is, however, a slight problem with your explanation of irresistible grace. The Holy Spirit doesn't enable the elect to believe in order to prevent belief from becoming a work. Rather, He enables the elect to believe because no one could ever believe the gospel unless he/she is born from above (Eze 36:25-27; John 3:3-5; 6:44, 65; Rom 8:5-9; 1 Cor 2:14; 2 Cor 4:4). God must first overcome the sinful nature in order for the elect to repent and believe. He must open their blind eyes, remove their heart of stone, and put His Spirit in them so that they can see and enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, according to Reformed theology, spiritual regeneration is a prerequisite to faith in Christ. The operation of the Holy Spirit in regeneration requires neither our consent nor our assistance. The Spirit simply acts according to the will of the Father, Who chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-5). In that sense, the grace is irresistible. It's not that we see it coming, struggle against it, and get dragged kicking and screaming into the kingdom. Rather, God changes our nature. He enables us to believe. We then naturally and willingly do so.
I would invite you to join the 'Calvinism/Arminianism' discussion in Doctrine forum.
In Him,
-Intrepidus
< Message edited by Intrepidus -- 10/19/2009 12:27:56 AM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 8:34:39 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
It is a tradition of false doctrine. Excuse me? If you do not believe that salvation is produced by grace, through having faith in the Only Source of salvation, then you are the one dabbling in false doctrine, jj!
Exactly! If that were the case I would be however that is not what I said my friend.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 8:45:41 AM
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drmark
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Then why don't we allow frankman to speak for himself and clarify his lack of prepositions before labelling his statement "false doctrine".
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 11:16:16 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Then why don't we allow frankman to speak for himself and clarify his lack of prepositions before labelling his statement "false doctrine".
Because the exact wording he used is common among many folks who say you are saved by faith alone.
If you are saved by faith alone then that rules out grace and vice versa.
I believe he meant what he said. He said it out of ignorance. I am not bashing him. Just stating the obvious.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 11:19:37 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Because the exact wording he used is common among many folks who say you are saved by faith alone. Well that's odd, jj, because I have never read it the way frankman wrote it without the other two prepositions. Are you out there, frankman?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 11:56:56 AM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Because the exact wording he used is common among many folks who say you are saved by faith alone. Well that's odd, jj, because I have never read it the way frankman wrote it without the other two prepositions. Are you out there, frankman?
Well I think that Eph 2 came to your mind when you read his post since there are similar key words in what he said and that commonly used passage.
I only read it the way I did because I have lots of experience with people saying the exact same thing as he.
Frankman?!!! HELLO??!!! YOU THERE? 
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 12:51:10 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I only read it the way I did because I have lots of experience with people saying the exact same thing as he. If you say so, jj. I prefer to give frankman the benefit of the doubt since he clarified his postion in post #28 this way: "We appropriate the gift of salvation by believing in what Christ has done for us on the cross." There's no "false doctrine" in that statement, as far as I'm concerned!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 1:01:30 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I only read it the way I did because I have lots of experience with people saying the exact same thing as he. If you say so, jj. I prefer to give frankman the benefit of the doubt since he clarified his postion in post #28 this way: "We appropriate the gift of salvation by believing in what Christ has done for us on the cross." There's no "false doctrine" in that statement, as far as I'm concerned!
I was not declaring believing to be saved is false doctrine.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 1:24:49 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I was not declaring believing to be saved is false doctrine. Okay, so is our faith what saves us?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 1:36:55 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I was not declaring believing to be saved is false doctrine. Okay, so is our faith what saves us?
That is one way to put it.
However I think there are different definitions of faith.
Some believe that faith is mental assent.
I do not believe that is biblical.
Faith always includes obedience.
Grace and obedience are not mutually exclusive.
Read Hebrews 11 .....by faith our forefathers did things!
God defines how we are to have a relationship with Him through the conditions he lays out for us.
When people use the example of Ephesians 2 to say that anything we do is works they are doing so incorrectly.
The context of Ephesians 2 is works of the law of Moses. Paul is not saying throw out anything God commands you to do in order to be saved.
Just because we must do something in order to appropriate God's grace does not mean we are working for it.
< Message edited by jjbird -- 10/19/2009 1:59:35 PM >
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 2:04:59 PM
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drmark
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quote:
quote:
Okay, so is our faith what saves us?
That is one way to put it. Then that would be the WRONG way to put it!! We are saved by the grace of God's election conditional upon our belief in His Son's death and resurrection on behalf of our sins. Human faith cannot and will not ever save anyone, but no human can or will ever be saved without faith!
quote:
Some believe that faith is mental assent.
I do not believe that is biblical. Obviously, in view of James 2.
quote:
Faith always includes obedience. Yes, saving faith always includes an initial element of trust and obedience, but one cannot fully trust and obey until one is saved.
quote:
Grace and obedience are not mutually exclusive. I don't think I follow this statement, jj. Grace comes from God, obedience comes from us. We do not obey in order to receive grace, rather we do obey because we have received grace which enables us to obey.
quote:
When people use the example of Ephesians 2 to say that anything we do is works they are doing so incorrectly.
The context of Ephesians 2 is works of the law of Moses. Paul is not saying throw out anything God commands you to do in order to be saved.
Just because we must do something in order to appropriate God's grace does not mean we are working for it. I wholeheartedly agree with this! Initial trust and obedience are not works intended to merit God's favor, thus anyone who equates faith with works is incorrect.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 2:49:07 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
quote:
Okay, so is our faith what saves us?
That is one way to put it. Then that would be the WRONG way to put it!! We are saved by the grace of God's election conditional upon our belief in His Son's death and resurrection on behalf of our sins. Human faith cannot and will not ever save anyone, but no human can or will ever be saved without faith!
No it wouldn't be wrong. There are many often times you can express the same thing but in different ways.
quote:
Some believe that faith is mental assent.
I do not believe that is biblical. Obviously, in view of James 2.
quote:
Faith always includes obedience. Yes, saving faith always includes an initial element of trust and obedience, but one cannot fully trust and obey until one is saved.
Well I disagree.....I believe that full trust and obedience is what God desires to be initially saved.
quote:
Grace and obedience are not mutually exclusive. I don't think I follow this statement, jj. Grace comes from God, obedience comes from us. We do not obey in order to receive grace, rather we do obey because we have received grace which enables us to obey.
Obedience does not come from us. It comes from God. It is what we do but God ordained it expressing that that is how we have a faithful relationship with Him.
And we obey in order to both appropriate God's grace and because we have received His grace. Both are true!
quote:
When people use the example of Ephesians 2 to say that anything we do is works they are doing so incorrectly.
The context of Ephesians 2 is works of the law of Moses. Paul is not saying throw out anything God commands you to do in order to be saved.
Just because we must do something in order to appropriate God's grace does not mean we are working for it. I wholeheartedly agree with this! Initial trust and obedience are not works intended to merit God's favor, thus anyone who equates faith with works is incorrect.
However many people claim that baptism is a work that does not save. Well Peter says it does save. Jesus said it too.
That is why we must look at the whole of the salvation narrative.
Baptism is something God does and we do. He fills us with His Holy Spirit when we immerse ourselves in water believing and trusting in the blood of Christ that saves.
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 3:07:24 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Well I disagree.....I believe that full trust and obedience is what God desires to be initially saved. So what exactly must a sinner "fully obey" (your words, not mine) in order to be saved? How can a sinner fully obey if they are a sinner? Why would a sinner need to be saved if they can fully obey before initial salvation?
quote:
Obedience does not come from us. It comes from God. It is what we do but God ordained it expressing that that is how we have a faithful relationship with Him. Okay, I think we're a little closer on this issue. I would say that obedience comes from the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives. It is still our responsibility to obey - God cannot and will not obey for us!
quote:
And we obey in order to both appropriate God's grace and because we have received His grace. Both are true! Well I disagree...we believe to appropriate grace. We show our belief is real by obeying because we have already appropriated grace.
quote:
However many people claim that baptism is a work that does not save. Well Peter says it does save. Jesus said it too.
That is why we must look at the whole of the salvation narrative.
Baptism is something God does and we do. He fills us with His Holy Spirit when we immerse ourselves in water believing and trusting in the blood of Christ that saves. Save it for another thread, jj! Countless people haved been saved without one drop of water in sight and that's all that needs to be said to disprove that faulty doctrine!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 3:11:43 PM
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jjbird
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Well I disagree.....I believe that full trust and obedience is what God desires to be initially saved. So what exactly must a sinner "fully obey" (your words, not mine) in order to be saved? How can a sinner fully obey if they are a sinner? Why would a sinner need to be saved if they can fully obey before initial salvation?
quote:
Obedience does not come from us. It comes from God. It is what we do but God ordained it expressing that that is how we have a faithful relationship with Him. Okay, I think we're a little closer on this issue. I would say that obedience comes from the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit working in our lives. It is still our responsibility to obey - God cannot and will not obey for us!
quote:
And we obey in order to both appropriate God's grace and because we have received His grace. Both are true! Well I disagree...we believe to appropriate grace. We show our belief is real by obeying because we have already appropriated grace.
quote:
However many people claim that baptism is a work that does not save. Well Peter says it does save. Jesus said it too.
That is why we must look at the whole of the salvation narrative.
Baptism is something God does and we do. He fills us with His Holy Spirit when we immerse ourselves in water believing and trusting in the blood of Christ that saves. Save it for another thread, jj! Countless people have been saved without one drop of water in sight and that's all that needs to be said to disprove that faulty doctrine!
Was it a biblical conversion? Not at all.
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Is baptism not part of God's will? Did Jesus not command it?
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 3:13:58 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Is baptism not part of God's will? Did Jesus not command it? Another thread, jj! Are you going to answer my first three questions in post #46 or not? They are on topic, not salvation by baptism.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 3:20:48 PM
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Intrepidus
Posts: 104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jjbird
However I think there are different definitions of faith.
Some believe that faith is mental assent.
I do not believe that is biblical.
Faith always includes obedience.
Grace and obedience are not mutually exclusive...
Just because we must do something in order to appropriate God's grace does not mean we are working for it.
I strongly disagree. Faith is distinct from obedience in the same way that a cause is distinct from its effect. Yes, one invariably leads to the other, but the two remain discrete and are fundamentally different in nature.
Biblical faith includes mental assent. There are propositional truths to which one must subscribe in order to be called 'Christian.' Such truths are what set Christianity apart from, say, Mormonism. But this is only one component of true faith.
Theologians discern three components of biblical faith:
1. Notitia - These are the propositional truths of the Christian faith, the "facts" of the gospel.
2. Assensus - Agreement that the above are true.
3. Fiducia - Trust in the object of faith, namely Jesus Christ.
All three must be present in order for a person to have true, saving faith. If only notitia and assensus are present, but no trust, "then you have 'devil's faith.' As James writes, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--" (James 2:19). On the other hand if only assensus and fiducia are present, but no distinctly Christian content, then you are the faithful believer in a false religion. All three--notitia, assensus, and fiducia--are needed for one to be a Christian.
Finally, grace cannot possibly have a requirement. If, as you say, a person "must do something in order to appropriate God's grace," then it is no longer grace but a wage. This is Paul's entire argument in Romans 4. "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness" (vv. 4-5). Grace, by definition, is undeserved favor. You can't do anything to deserve it. Once you do, it's not grace. Whatever hoop (or series of hoops) you insist on jumping through, it is not grace that awaits on the other side but a payment for jumping.
To distinguish between works of the law and works in general is, I think, the Pharisaical straining-out of a gnat. God's grace does not come as the result of man's work. Period. Trying to limit the type of work included in that statement, allowing that grace may be the result of a different kind of work, completely short-circuits the gospel of grace. It is the legalist's attempt to get around Paul's otherwise clear condemnation of works-based righteousness. It is, in Paul's words, "another gospel" (Gal 1:8).
-Intrepidus
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RE: Do You Understand That Salvation is by Grace? - 10/19/2009 3:23:59 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5280
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quote:
3. Fiducia - Trust in the object of faith, namely Jesus Christ. How can there be "trust in Christ" without obedience to His Will - Matthew 7:21?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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Then the light came on, and like the thief on the cross we realized we do need God. We see ourselves as sinners, condemned, thus leading us to accept the rescue that is ours by believing in Jesus. Once we believe we will seek to follow the lifestyle that will conform us to that of the example set before us by our Savour and Lord. We are judically saved when we believed. We develop a relationship with Jesus and our new family by being obedient to following the Jesus way.
