|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 1:42:53 PM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 170
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Hi 1lightseeker
Yes the Lord did indeed say those things.
The Lord also said these things...These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Matt.10
I want to stop here before I contine on and ask if this is the gospel we are called to preach today....repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand? Is that what we as the members of the church, the body of Christ are called to preach to the lost today? And as the Lord tells his disciples, they are to go only to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal with this message. Are we following these instructions today? If not, why not, aren't these also the Lord's commandments? And this...
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
Is this how we are to send out our missionaries today? Without money and only the clothes on their backs? Heal the sick, raise the dead?
One last question....
When the Phillipian jailer asks Paul what he has to do to be saved, why didn't Paul tell the jailer, that salvation is a journey and that to obtain eternal life he had to....endure to the end, sell all that he had, give to the poor, feed the hungry, deny himself, crucify himself daily, stay in the Lord's presense and so on? And even then not be sure of an eternally secure home in Heaven?
rileykins
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 3:13:47 PM
|
|
|
johnkw
Posts: 345
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
johnkw,
quote:
The word you quote as 'condemnation', in 1 Cor. 11:29, is 'krima' or 'krina', which does not mean ultimate condemnation. To make it ultimate you put the prefix 'kata' in front: only then could you say that this verse is talking about losing eternal salvation. So 1 Cor. 11:29 says that those who eat the bread and drink the cup in an unworthy manner will be disciplined by God, but they're still saved.
That is correct. It adds further to the incorrect status of the believer and OSAS.
If one does not heed the discipline and continues to willingly partake in condemnation, then as the example shows, they died. This death is not part of the chastisement.
That's now how I read it. The death is the chastisement. And, since they died saved, they go straight to God, where I imagine God, after welcoming them with open arms and a big party, eventually gets to the reasons why He called him home so soon: "Son, why did you eat and drink unworthily, not recognizing the Body of Christ?"
quote:
If salvation was final in this life, then condemnation would also be.
But it's not final condemnation that the verse is talking about. Just chastisement, of a believer.
quote:
Once an unbeleiver, always an unbeliever. I don't think you will find either stand anywhere in scripture.
Non-sequitur.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 6:00:55 PM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
Ro 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake * out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
An interesting proposition. It is near, but not yet. hmm.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 6:24:27 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
That's now how I read it. The death is the chastisement. If you put your hands in the fire and get burned, are you being punished? It is the same with the lost.
My point is that salvation is not a matter of guilty not guilty. In other words, it is not juridical but therapeutic. Think about the Good Samaritan. God came as a physician to cure us. If you refuse, you will die in your sins. And it is not because you are being punished. We did it to ourselves.
quote:
And, since they died saved, they go straight to God, where I imagine God, after welcoming them with open arms and a big party, eventually gets to the reasons why He called him home so soon: "Son, why did you eat and drink unworthily, not recognizing the Body of Christ?" Ok, this is taking scripture out of context. God is going to say to the believers who died "Son, why did you eat and drink unworthily, not recognizing the Body of Christ?" Where did you get this false doctrine from?
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2006 9:30:42 PM
|
|
|
cassian
Posts: 162
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline
|
johnkw,
quote:
That's now how I read it. The death is the chastisement. And, since they died saved, they go straight to God, where I imagine God, after welcoming them with open arms and a big party, eventually gets to the reasons why He called him home so soon: "Son, why did you eat and drink unworthily, not recognizing the Body of Christ?"
Really? God will chastise you with the intent that you get a message but you do not call this chastisement. But when you fail to head the warnings and continue to willfully sin, God takes your life, and that is chastisement.
And you treat it as being saved besides??
I can see how it would support your view. But there is nothing in scripture that supports that being in sin, willfully sinning and then willfully sinning disrespecting the chastisement that God might send, one is still saved. The simple logic doesn't even follow. If they were still saved, why would God even care that they were eating and drinking unworthily. Why would God take them and take them beyond a point of repentance? The "getting sick" is the chastisement, and is calling for repentance, in order that a person could once again be reconciled to God. This is a clear example of final condemnation if one does not heed the warnings. I don't think you will ever find salvation and condemnation as having the same meaning anywhere in scripture. Whether it is not final or final. The finality of the condemnation depends on whether the person repented, thus would be saved. But death precludes any repentance. We are not saved by disobedience. Sin still separates man from God. Repentance is the only reconciliation.
quote:
But it's not final condemnation that the verse is talking about. Just chastisement, of a believer Ah, yes, it is speaking of chastisement. But you have already explained that your definition of chastisement was not the getting sick. The concept, Scripturally, is that the getting sick is a warning, a chastisement. It requires repentance or a change in how one partakes of the Body and Blood of Christ. It will be a final condemnation if one does not repent. That is the whole meaning.
It is the same meaning of the verses dealing with unbelievers. Unbelievers are condemned for their unbelief. But every unbeliever can become a beleiver. By your definition, this would never be possible as they were already condemned, the same way you think that a believer is OSAS, when in fact he is saved (being saved) only as long as he believes. He can change his position at will and does and Scripture has quite a few examples just to make the point. A point that you are simply ignoring.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 9:11:59 AM
|
|
|
Hischild1994
Posts: 1434
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: nowimfound
The only way that I could be unsaved is if God turned back the hands of time and Jesus never became man, never died on the cross, and never rose again. The very basis of our eternal security is the finished work of Christ. It has nothing to do with our works or actions or obedience or lack thereof. Works didn't save before the cross and they don't save after the cross. Salvation is an eternally secure free gift. It is however a gift that can also be freely rejected. It can't be taken away, but it can be given away.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
Did God take away your free will?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 9:41:27 AM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 170
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
unworthyserahpim
Easily explained.
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Romans 8
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 1Cor.15
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Titus 2:13
Justification, Santification, Glorification.
rileykins
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Ro 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake * out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
An interesting proposition. It is near, but not yet. hmm.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 9:53:29 AM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
Justification, Sanctification, Glorification...then are not different things, but a single thing, a thing as yet unfinished in linear time for most of us. Thus we are still being saved and no one this side of death should with any certitude affirm that they are saved, but only that they are being saved.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 10:16:16 AM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 170
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Oh, contrare! We who have trusted in Christ and in Christ alone, (by grace through faith) for eternal life certainly do have certainty that we are once and for all saved from the penatly, power and one day the very presense of sin...
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
2Cor.1:22
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Ephs. 1:13,14
I affirm with absolute unquestioning certitude in God's word to me that my salvation is eternally secure in Christ Jesus, becasue of what God in Christ did for me on Calvary.
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3
rileykins
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Justification, Sanctification, Glorification...then are not different things, but a single thing, a thing as yet unfinished in linear time for most of us. Thus we are still being saved and no one this side of death should with any certitude affirm that they are saved, but only that they are being saved.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 11:15:40 AM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
hmmm...earnest of our inheretance until the redemption.....hmmm
And should one grieve away the Holy Spirit, what of that earnest then?
But be all the above as it may. Your "talking points" do not support your "au contraire" vis a vis salvation being a single ontological state culminated at the resurrection of the faithful.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 12:18:14 PM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 170
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
Sorry I can't convince you, oh, well, I tried.
Redemption of our bodies.
Romans 8.
Believers can grieve the Holy Spirit. They do so whenever they for instance insist to the contrary that we today are indeed under law when God's word to us says we are not...For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6. Thats' just one for instance, there are more but it won't be necessary for me to go into all of the ways believers today grieve the Holy Spirit.
Nevertheless, while saved people can grieve the Holy Spirit and do by not believing what is written to us as members of the body of Christ today in this dispensation of grace, that still doesn't mean they can or have lost their salvation. The earnest stands sure, because our position in Christ and our being sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit is based on what Christ on Calvary has done, not on what we are doing to save ourselves or keep ourselves saved, as if we could.
For by grace are saved...through what? through faith...Our response to the grace of God and his offer to us of the gift of eternal life through His Son and His finished work on Calvary on our behalf, is simply, faith. Faith is the only response grace accepts.
rileykins
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
hmmm...earnest of our inheretance until the redemption.....hmmm
And should one grieve away the Holy Spirit, what of that earnest then?
But be all the above as it may. Your "talking points" do not support your "au contraire" vis a vis salvation being a single ontological state culminated at the resurrection of the faithful.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 1:31:38 PM
|
|
|
unworthyseraphim
Posts: 1084
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Mississippi
Status: offline
|
Yes...you have...old arguments I've seen many times and find not convincing in the least. And I'm sure you have seen the contrary arguements and have yet to be swayed by them either.
The difference for me is while most in this argument believe in the same basic definition/understanding of what it is to be saved, regardless of whether or not it is a condition that can be lost, I no longer share that same understanding of the content of salvation.
My paradigm has been well and truly shifted. From my perspective the argument now looks like a dispute over whether or not one can loose something one does not yet quite possess....and the nature of the possession is itself in some question as to the nature of its content
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 1:34:38 PM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 907
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
quote:
Thus we are still being saved and no one this side of death should with any certitude affirm that they are saved
an excellent observation unworthy -
thinking about this in a different thread as we speak, in a different light though. three things are certain of, when relating to this:
we are saved
we are being saved
we shall be saved
peace to you
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 2:18:03 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
we are saved
we are being saved
we shall be saved I think more we were saved 2000 years ago when Christ defeated death. This is a done deal.
We are being saved now in the sense that we are becoming more like Christ if we choose to.
And we will be saved when all is done.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 2:54:46 PM
|
|
|
johnkw
Posts: 345
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
That's now how I read it. The death is the chastisement. If you put your hands in the fire and get burned, are you being punished? It is the same with the lost.
My point is that salvation is not a matter of guilty not guilty. In other words, it is not juridical but therapeutic. Think about the Good Samaritan. God came as a physician to cure us. If you refuse, you will die in your sins. And it is not because you are being punished. We did it to ourselves.
quote:
And, since they died saved, they go straight to God, where I imagine God, after welcoming them with open arms and a big party, eventually gets to the reasons why He called him home so soon: "Son, why did you eat and drink unworthily, not recognizing the Body of Christ?" Ok, this is taking scripture out of context. God is going to say to the believers who died "Son, why did you eat and drink unworthily, not recognizing the Body of Christ?" Where did you get this false doctrine from?
For the record, I meant to say, "That's not how I read it."
I don't know what the Good Samaritan has to do with this.
Anyway, soterion (which we translate salvation) is a very complex Greek word. It is both juridical and therapeutic. It's both a rescue from ultimate condemnation (with the concomittant ushering into the new life in Christ), and growing in grace, God being more and more Himself in and through you. "You will die in your sins" is a message of warning to unbelievers, not to those who have given their lives over to Christ. If a believer refuses the Healer's touch, his life will suck, but when he dies he'll still go to heaven.
What am I taking out of context? I only offered that hypothetical scene to illustrate the truth that that believer who ate and drank unworthily was not ultimately condemned, but only chastised, for his unworthy manner of participation. What false doctrine are you talking about? I was hoping people could separate the illustration from the statement of truth.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 3:03:27 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
I don't know what the Good Samaritan has to do with this. It has everything to do with it. The good samaritan saved the poor man, but that doesn't mean he is eternally saved. He still can go out there and get in trouble again. Except that this time the good samaritan is not going to be around a second time.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 3:15:17 PM
|
|
|
facedown
Posts: 907
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: the urban desert
Status: offline
|
facedown comments in bold
quote:
I think more we were saved 2000 years ago when Christ defeated death. This is a done deal. this is more of a universalist perspective
We are being saved now in the sense that we are becoming more like Christ if we choose to. this negates the universalist perspective, as well as the above statement
And we will be saved when all is done. same/same
don't get me wrong, i greatly appreciate the plurality of what is found within Scripture. too often we take one perspective and run with it. i just don't think the calvinistic approach is the most authentic response.
quote:
The good samaritan saved the poor man, but that doesn't mean he is eternally saved. He still can go out there and get in trouble again. Except that this time the good samaritan is not going to be around a second time. please explain "not going to be around a second time"
_____________________________
-| those who say, don't know. those who know, don't say |-
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 3:27:56 PM
|
|
|
rileykins
Posts: 170
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
You're right unworthyseraphim.
My arguments are old, as old as our apostle Paul.
My paradigm? (i'm sure I'm probably using this word in the wrong way, but, oh, well) The gospel of the grace of God.
Saved from what? Saved from the penalty of sin. For the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. Death not just the physical kind but death being eternal seperation from God in a not so nice place for all of eternity. God's solution to our sin problem and lack of life, His Son.
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
How do we receive the gift of eternal life?...for by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.
And what is it about Christ that we are to believe and put our trust in ... For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
I know, just not sophisticated enough. Too simple. Yep, God put the cookies on the bottom shelf where anyone and everyone, whosoever will could reach them.
rileykins
quote:
ORIGINAL: unworthyseraphim
Yes...you have...old arguments I've seen many times and find not convincing in the least. And I'm sure you have seen the contrary arguements and have yet to be swayed by them either.
The difference for me is while most in this argument believe in the same basic definition/understanding of what it is to be saved, regardless of whether or not it is a condition that can be lost, I no longer share that same understanding of the content of salvation.
My paradigm has been well and truly shifted. From my perspective the argument now looks like a dispute over whether or not one can loose something one does not yet quite possess....and the nature of the possession is itself in some question as to the nature of its content
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 3:42:31 PM
|
|
|
johnkw
Posts: 345
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: cassian
johnkw,
quote:
That's now how I read it. The death is the chastisement. And, since they died saved, they go straight to God, where I imagine God, after welcoming them with open arms and a big party, eventually gets to the reasons why He called him home so soon: "Son, why did you eat and drink unworthily, not recognizing the Body of Christ?"
Really? God will chastise you with the intent that you get a message but you do not call this chastisement.
I don't know what you're talking about. What am I not calling chastisement?
quote:
But when you fail to head the warnings and continue to willfully sin, God takes your life, and that is chastisement.
Again, for the record, I meant to write, "That's not how I read it," not, "That's now how I read it."
And yes, God taking ones life is chastisement, because, since we live forever, what we do here matters and will have an effect on what rewards we receive in heaven. I, for one, want to receive all the rewards Christ has for me. God, like a good parent, will discipline bad behavior. Witness Ananias and Sapphira. And it serves as a warning for those who are left behind, too.
quote:
And you treat it as being saved besides??
Wow, 2 question marks! No, I don't treat it as being saved. I treat it as a possible situation a saved person might be in. It's still a tragedy nonetheless. The unrealized potential of a life lived for God.
quote:
I can see how it would support your view.
Do you know my view that you could make such a categorical statement? Slow down, trigger.
quote:
But there is nothing in scripture that supports that being in sin, willfully sinning and then willfully sinning disrespecting the chastisement that God might send, one is still saved.
Except for the story of the prodigal son. Being in sin: "Dad, give me my inheritance now!" Willfully sinning: "Wine, women, and song." Willfully sinning, disrespecting chastisement: losing it all and then going to feed pigs. Still saved: He came to himself and decided to go back to his father.
quote:
The simple logic doesn't even follow. If they were still saved, why would God even care that they were eating and drinking unworthily.
You really ask that? Being saved (in the ushering into eternal life sense, not in the daily growing in grace/holiness sense) is not the end-all be-all of Christian life. Of course God cares about how we partake. You might as well ask, "If he's your child, why do you care that he has tantrums and throws his food on the floor?"
quote:
Why would God take them and take them beyond a point of repentance? The "getting sick" is the chastisement, and is calling for repentance, in order that a person could once again be reconciled to God. This is a clear example of final condemnation if one does not heed the warnings.
But scripture doesn't call it final condemnation, just chastisement. Check your Greek.
quote:
I don't think you will ever find salvation and condemnation as having the same meaning anywhere in scripture.
I agree. They're opposites. What does that have to do with anything?
quote:
The finality of the condemnation depends on whether the person repented, thus would be saved.
The putative sinning believer has already Repented, thus has already been Saved.
Repentance with a big 'R' has only to do with our response to Christ. Once we're in Him by faith, we're in, and then we're Saved with a big 'S.' John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish--ever! No one will snatch them out of My hand." Once we're in, then there's the matter of putting on good things and putting off bad things, and being renewed by the transforming of our minds.
quote:
But death precludes any repentance. We are not saved by disobedience. Sin still separates man from God. Repentance is the only reconciliation.
What does "We are not saved by disobedience." have to do with anything? Again, the putative sinning believer has already Repented, and has already been Saved. Why is this hard to understand?
quote:
quote:
But it's not final condemnation that the verse is talking about. Just chastisement, of a believer Ah, yes, it is speaking of chastisement. But you have already explained that your definition of chastisement was not the getting sick.
Did I say that? I don't remember doing so. If so, sorry. Yes, getting sick is also chastisement. And it would be better for the believer to get it then, than for God to go to more extreme measures and call them home.
quote:
The concept, Scripturally, is that the getting sick is a warning, a chastisement. It requires repentance or a change in how one partakes of the Body and Blood of Christ.
Yes. I use repentance with a little 'r' here.
quote:
It will be a final condemnation if one does not repent. That is the whole meaning.
No. The bible never uses final condemnation in this passage.
quote:
It is the same meaning of the verses dealing with unbelievers. Unbelievers are condemned for their unbelief.
This is ultimate condemnation, katakrima. The 'kata' makes it ultimate. And that happens at their death, if they don't Repent.
quote:
But every unbeliever can become a beleiver. By your definition, this would never be possible as they were already condemned, the same way you think that a believer is OSAS, when in fact he is saved (being saved) only as long as he believes. He can change his position at will and does and Scripture has quite a few examples just to make the point. A point that you are simply ignoring.
Whoa, nelly! I'm not ignoring anything. There's no time to write a treatise, and I'm not in grad school anymore. I have a job and a wife and a kid. I'm putting things out there that hopefully will benefit people. To your point: it's not a symmetric proposition. OSAS does not imply OLAL. OSAS a one-way valve. Once saved always saved does not in the slightest imply that Once Lost Always Lost. Why would it? That's a specious argument.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 4:17:50 PM
|
|
|
walterquez
Posts: 1342
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: facedown
facedown comments in bold
I think more we were saved 2000 years ago when Christ defeated death. This is a done deal. this is more of a universalist perspective It would be if I left it at that. But I don't believe what Origen did back in those days.
What I mean is that since Christ already defeated death, then there is no death to be saved from. It makes no difference whether you believe or not. Is like someone paying the credit card debts of everyone. It makes no difference whether you believe or not. Your debt is gone. But it doesn't end there. And I think this is where Origen probably dwelled too much.
quote:
We are being saved now in the sense that we are becoming more like Christ if we choose to. this negates the universalist perspective, as well as the above statement
And we will be saved when all is done. same/same Now that death has been defeated, it is time for the healing process. To become like Christ. To return to the state Adam was before the fall and continue with the process to be like Christ.
If choose to be like Christ, great. If we don't then we sin, just like Adam, we will die.
But there's more to this, but I don't have the time to post everything right now.
quote:
quote:
The good samaritan saved the poor man, but that doesn't mean he is eternally saved. He still can go out there and get in trouble again. Except that this time the good samaritan is not going to be around a second time. please explain "not going to be around a second time" Christ died once, He will not do it again.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Salvation and Eternal Security - One Stop Thread - 3/7/2006 4:24:50 PM
|
|
|
| |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
